wolfhard -:- Why so much hate? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 08:46:32 (EST)

__ Kelly -:- Re: Why so much hate? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:41:50 (EST)

__ __ Kelly -:- How did I do that? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:51:17 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Re: How did I do that? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:11:40 (EST)

__ Chuck S. -:- We all played our parts... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:35:12 (EST)

__ Jim -:- What if the DDR were still in business? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:59:56 (EST)

__ PatC -:- Welcome Wolfhard -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:48:36 (EST)

__ Deputy Dog :=) -:- Re: Why so much hate? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 12:26:44 (EST)

__ __ Deborah -:- ***Best of Forum*** [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:58:31 (EST)

__ Tonette -:- I'm sorry that is what you saw here, hate -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 09:55:42 (EST)

__ __ wolfhard -:- Re: I'm sorry that is what you saw here, hate -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 12:56:32 (EST)

__ __ __ Vicki -:- Why? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:26:17 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Chuck S. -:- Excellent point, Vicki... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:57:09 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Well said, Chuck! LOL -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:15:54 (EST)

__ __ __ JHB -:- EPO -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:46:03 (EST)

__ Loafsoft -:- hello Wolf -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 09:20:46 (EST)

__ __ Vicki -:- hello Wolf -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 12:48:32 (EST)

Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 08:46:32 (EST)
From: wolfhard
Email: w@thienen.de
To: All
Subject: Why so much hate?
Message:

Hi,
I am new on this forum, scrolled through some of the information and found it very interesting. Since I am also an ex-premi many of the stories and information really touches me.
So at first here my shortstory (if you are interested for more details write me a mail):
With age of 19 I received Knowledge by Mahatma G. Charnanand in Frankfurt/Germany, whre I lived. At that time, I was very depressed, searching for a meaning in life, for a way out of my own darkness. I guess today you would call this state of mind depression and I guess many of us suffered such a lack of ability to see a meaning and joy in „normal“ life.
Soon I entered the Ashram in Frankfurt and stoppet studying. What really impressed me on the movement was the company of so many people who where just feeling like I did and of course the deep experience of meditation , which I know now is not belonging to GM or his techniques (which are neither his invention) but which is inside of me as a natural part.
During the years I saw GM on a lot of programs. Even on one of the first programs I saw him on an Ashram-Meeting and had the strong feeling, that he is personally completely different than what he was showing to the outside. I had my doubts during the years but actually I never could leave, because the fear to live in the „normal“ world was too great. In 1982 or so the ashram-scene broak down. I left and through some very hard years I tried to make my way back into the normal life. I suffered mental diseases like depression and sleeplessness and at one point I had to tell myself very strictly: Stop now thinking of the past and concentrate on your life now and try to open for the beauty that there is. I studied again, started a job, met my wife and now I have a nice family with all ist ups and downs. I still experience sometimes very deep depression, sleeplessness, fear. At that moments I feel, that I am missing something inside of me. But I do not want to endulge in any kind of cult and beeing „saved“ again. Rather I try to accept these times as a part of me, of my personality, as something that I have to deal with and not escape from it by drifting off in a fantasy-world of a cult. I feel, that I have to go „down on earth“ and accept life and myself as they are, also accepting the pain and sorrow that sometimes is involved in living. I guess there is a lot more to say to this but I stop now because I want to say something else.

When I first read the articles represented here, many of them really touched me and I could feel, how much pain and suffering are involved. But what I cannot understand is sometimes the great negativity and hate with which GM is described. Why so much hate? Is this the way to get rid of him? Each one of us involved in the cult, played a more or less active part in it, braught even other people to it. Once John Lennon asked what happens to war if nobody goes there. So immagíne what happened to GM if nobody went there. I feel, that I am responsable for all what I did. There where always a lot of people around me who told me, that its a cult and that the Guru is fake. So why blame him, where I first of all have to blame myself? And actually I do not feel all that negative about that time. I was searching for something and I had the strong feeling of finding it and I had great moments and experiences. These moments and experiences where in me, the cult just brought them up. I met a lot of very valuable people and seekers like me and I appreciate that. By completey denying this time and blaming GM I deny and hate a part of myself. And thats what I really dont want.

What I blame GM for is that he claimed and,as far as I know, still claims to be a spiritual perfect teacher. If he was a real teacher, he would have stopped our mass-dropping-out of „normal“ life and would have brought us to a more realistic and mature way of spirituality. And of course he would have said, that he is just a normal person teaching some meditation-techniques. Then I wouldnt even mind if he took money for it and made a nice living, like many professional mental trainers do. I think, he is his own victim much more than we are. And he is not a man who is able to see his life and his mistakes. When people in Latin America „vanished“ the greatest problem for their relatives was, that it never became certain if they were dead or not, although there could be no doubt that they were. The relatives were unable to finish their suffering and hope and this was much worse then just loosing a relative. In the same way I think, if GM would be man enough he would stand up and say: „OK folks, I made a mistake, sorry, but I am not a perfect spiritual teacher any more“. This would help a lot of us to close this chapter of our life and be able to open up for other chapters. And it could even help to analyse the process of cults and help developing mechanisms for prevention. But I guess people like him are never able to really take responsability for what they did because it would be too much for them.
I see the past not as completely negative but as a part of my life. Of course it was a dead-end-street but at least I experencied and learned a lot. Here in Germany we have a lot of people who are confronted witht the fact, that their former life is now „wrong“. Just immagine the people in the former DDR or like my father who participated in 2nd world war as a young man. So this happens to people always and all around the world and they manage to deal with it. What I feel important is to tell people and especially young people about the dangers and automatism of entering an endulging in a cult. To give them real help at hand and talk to them when they are feeling bad and depressed. Cults are like drugs and they should be treated like that. But they have to be treated in a way that is proper and sensible. And that is by seeing them as a phenomena that accours, where teacher and diciples are both guilty and responsable for the illness of that process.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:41:50 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: wolfhard
Subject: Re: Why so much hate?
Message:


[ Kelly ]

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:51:17 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: How did I do that?
Message:

I've been investigating how to post a link, but not got around to trying it, and then, out of the blue, it just happens. Really, I didn't do it, it wasn't me. It must be grace!
Sorry Wolfhard
Kelly

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:11:40 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Re: How did I do that?
Message:

Maybe you typed your name into the url box or one of hotboards gremlins did it for you. b)

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:35:12 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: wolfhard
Subject: We all played our parts...
Message:

... and Maharaji played his. I accept full responibility for becoming involved with M & K as being my decision. I also insist that Maharaji be accountable for the part he played.

He deliberately decieved many people, and used his whole schtick to enrich himself financially, at great cost to many people. Information was and is deliberately hidden from premies, and lies deliberately told. Many people are angry because if they HAD known the full truth, if things had not been hidden and they had not been lied to, they would not have allowed themselves to be used and abused by M or his organization. Maharaji's deceptions made all that possible. It's only natural that some people would be quite angry, especially anyone who made great sacrifices, based on Maharaji's deliberate deceptions.

You may want to examine how much your reluctance to feel angry toward Maharaji could be part of the conditioning to not be critical of Maharaji, that we all experienced. Allowing yourself to be angry at him, even if only for a short time, can be very freeing, and can cleanse you of any last remnants of fear that may be lurking in your mind, that were instilled by M.

Anger towards M. or criticism of him was NEVER encouraged in the premie world, and indulging in that here can be very liberating in breaking any lingering influences M. may still have on us, even influences that we are not conciously aware of.

When I allowed myself to be angry about M. and his deceptions, it made it a lot easier to then let go of it and put it behind me and move on. I don't really feel angry about it now, not passionately anyway. Mostly it just seems embarassing now.

This place is great for finding information for deconstructing one's experience in the cult, so one can understand it and really untangle oneself. Many of us done that, and now just hang out here occasionally because we have made some friends here, and we like to welcome new folks and encourage them to not be afraid to examine their envolvement in the cult, and assure them that it's OK to be angry if that is how they feel, they won't turn into rotting vegetables!

You may even meet some old friends from the past! There is anger here, but there is also humor and fun and even some nice reminincenses of people and events from the past. Just like the real world, there is a bit of everything.

Welcome to the Forum! :)

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:59:56 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: wolfhard
Subject: What if the DDR were still in business?
Message:

Wolfhard,

What if the DDR was still in business and -- what was the guy's name? Eric Honacker? -- was rich as hell and telling anyone who'd listen that the excesses of the communist regime were all everyone's fault but his own?

It's a slightly different dynamic. The fact is, the more we go, the worse for the cult. It's a simple reality that if, hypothetically, we all just stopped tomorrow 1) Maharaji would be the happiest man in America for a few days; 2) No new facts and information would pass through this online clearing house for our own enlightenment, entertainment and edification; 3) fewer premies would be able to finally see their way out like you fortunately did; and 4) we wouldn't have all the fun that we have, from time to time, sorting through one of the wackiest stories of modern times.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:48:36 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: wolfhard
Subject: Welcome Wolfhard
Message:

My first impression of the forum also was that the exes indulge too much in hatred but as I began to read more and get to know people here I realized that it really was a healthy anger.

You said: ''I still experience sometimes very deep depression, sleeplessness, fear.''

I also thought that I had understood my involvement in the cult and had not been badly affected by it but as I began to examine the damage that Rawat had done to me by his bad teachings I also became angry. My anger healed me, made me strong and put the blame where it belongs - on Rawat. I no longer feel depression or fear and I sleep like a baby every night.

I don't hate Rawat but I am angry at him even if the harm that he did was mostly because he was so ignorant. However he has also become unimaginably wealthy out of his guru business and really does not have any regrets that he has hurt so many people.

Righteous anger can be very healing and empowering. Have you ever stopped to think why you still feel depression and fear? Maybe it is because of unresolved issues concerning the lies that Rawat told us.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 12:26:44 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog :=)
Email: None
To: wolfhard
Subject: Re: Why so much hate?
Message:

Wolfhard,

I too wondered about that! I certainly have no hate for Maharaji, and felt that people posting here who did hate him were somehow being unreasonable, over-emotional, touchy, cantankerous, quarrelsome, offensive, ill-humored etc.

Somehow, I stubbornly felt that I was the standard for how people should feel toward M and that those who expressed hate were wrong. I had been put in charge of how people should feel. Rather seeing people as different, I erroneously concluded that people who thought differently about M than me, were stupid, bad, sick, etc., that is, until I read a post below by Mike Finch entitled:

Categories of premie and ex-premie

Please read it. IMHO this is truly a “Best Of.” In the post Mike sensibly states that just as there are different types of people there are different types of premie, and they would quite naturally have different reactions to M and leaving M. For example, a 'socialite' premie like me, would have a completely different reaction to M and leaving M than a 'gopi' premie. Well duh! How obvious! Why couldn’t I see that before?

As is so well illustrated in the “Myers-Briggs” personality test, people are different in fundamental ways. We all have different temperaments and we do violence to others when we assume their differences to be flaws and afflictions. To each his own. Different strokes for different folks! Differences are not flaws! I’m now a chastised man.

Mike's post finally put it all together for me and it will definitely answer your question.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:58:31 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog :=)
Subject: ***Best of Forum*** [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 09:55:42 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: wolfhard
Subject: I'm sorry that is what you saw here, hate
Message:

I view the forum more as group of souls, uniting and supporting each other in love and discension in undoing the programming, spiritual rape, lost time, emotional and psychological damage our involvement in the cult gave us.
I don't like to post on the forum but I have a need to tell you that this avenue, the forum, helps those who read and participate understand just what the hell happened to us and why, why were we vunerable. How could we be so stupid, in other words. Unraveling that little understanding is most crucial in the ability to move on, totally free from Maharaji and his fraud.
I look at this forum as a public service. It has helped and is helping right now, many, many individuals who spent a big chunk of their lives believing a lie. Maharaji's agenda was and continues to be a lie. There are still one too many people who are captured by it. You were lucky, like me, I got out in 1982 or thereabouts. You may very well have different issues if you had spent 25 or more years involved. In fact, you might feel hate. Just imagine, if you had spent 30 years faithfully supporting Maharaji and were just now finding out the truth about him? What would be your reaction? I'm curious. Just try to imagine. In all sincerity, I would like to know.
But for the majority of the time this forum is populated by some incrediably loving and sensitive people. I've never read that anyone wishes Maharaji dead for pete's sake.
They wish for what you mentioned in your post, for Maharaji to be truthful and to make ammends. Geez, if Maharaji started choking and turning blue on his Porterhouse Steak in front of me I would be the first to attempt the Heimleich maneuver. I'd even do an emergency Tracheostomy, with glee, using his steak knife if necessary.

I'm so sorry that is all you see here, hate. I think for the most part people are sad here, completely upended, needing comfort and reassurance, but any hate is more born out of frustration and anger, why did he do this to me, when is he going to say he is sorry, when is he going to attempt to make it right, when will he read my letter and answer it, when will he even talk about my most deepest hurt?

I hope this gives you a different perspective on what is occuring here. You're welcome to post and get to know some of the great people here.
Your post could be a journey. Have you considered adding it to the Journey's entries located on EPO?
I have many fond memories of my life as a premie. It wasn't all bad but frankly, in hind site, I could of done without it. But hey, life happens.
And gently, I say this to you, if you suffer from depression to the point that it gets your attention, time to treat it. I do not invalidate what you wrote by saying this, not at all! I would say this if you were sitting next to me at lunch and you talked about it like you did here, I would say the same exact thing.

Welcome and Godspeed,
Tonette

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 12:56:32 (EST)
From: wolfhard
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: I'm sorry that is what you saw here, hate
Message:

Thanks Tonette for your long reply.
Maybe the title of my posting was a little bit irritating. I just stept over this forum and read through some of the postings. My expression at first was, that some postings are quite negative and actually I felt not very comfortable with that because I think, I also share my responsability in forming this cult. Maybe to express my first expression was a little bit too fast and actually my mainissue was to tell my story and come in contact with you people. What I see is a lot of honesty and trying to help others. That is great and I think it already helped me understand more. And believe me, I can understand why people feel that hate towards GM and his unability to take responsability. But I alos feel that we all have to share our part of responsability and I feel that I have to come to a point where I can accept this part of my life with love and a positive look.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:26:17 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: wolfhard
Subject: Why?
Message:

Why do you want to accept the blame that rightfully belongs on Maharaji's head? Better to accept how you were conned and dupped and forgive yourself then take on blame that is absolutely none of your responsibility. It would be like an abused victim taking the blame for the abuser. It's called the battered wife syndrome. In this case, I think it's the battered premie syndrome.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:57:09 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Excellent point, Vicki...
Message:

We all made our decisions to become involved with M&K, but with FALSE and incomplete information. If we had known then what we know now, we most likely would have made very different decisions. We were very deliberately mislead, decieved and USED. We are NOT to blame for the deception, that must be put at the feet of he who perpetuated it.

The Battered Premie Syndrom is very real, but like battered wives, they often can't see the abuse while they are still involved in it. Even after rejecting and leaving M, there can be a reluctance to critisize him, a need to not really see it in a negative way. I know it was like that for me. But eventually, it was just easier to admit to the ugly parts, that yes, I was duped and used. And sure, there were bad AND good parts to the overall experience. I just would rather not gloss the bad parts over anymore, in an effort to spare my ego some humiliation.

It's easier to just admit I was duped by a greedy crook, and be done with it! :P

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:15:54 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Well said, Chuck! LOL
Message:

Oh, the ego does get humiliated, doesn't it? Premies, the smart ones, the chosen ones, the ones who could tell a real,live, living lord! At the very least, a real, live perfect master. Crickey, it's a bit humbling to admit we were duped by such a fraud.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:46:03 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: wolfhard
Subject: EPO
Message:

Wolfhard,

In my introduction to this forum on EPO (www.ex-premie.org) I advise new readers to read the pages on EPO before the forum. The reason for this is that the forum is an ongoing conversation, and it's not always easy to understand the context if you are a newcomer. However, if you are familiar with EPO, then a lot of what we talk about here makes a lot more sense.

Anyway, welcome! Did you know we have another German ex-premie posting here who calls himself Wolfie?

John.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 09:20:46 (EST)
From: Loafsoft
Email: None
To: wolfhard
Subject: hello Wolf
Message:

i agree that villifying and demonising M is a trap in itself.. it is not politically correct on this forum to say anything nice about him.. BUT I have to say that after years of projected 'devotion' and saccarine love for maharaji, it is really balancing and healthy to regain ownership of your own feelings.. whatever they are.

So I personally dont knock people for venting their spleen toward him.. he has earned it just as much as he 'earned' their love.

The whole business of analysing him is, for me, very important beacuse it helps me to understand all the better my part in the great darshan swindle - - M has been a central figure in my life for many years..I dont want him there any more, but my past is affecting my current relationships and so I need to lay a few ghosts to rest before I am in a fit shape to move on.

I need help also in articulating my thoughts.. and some of the posts here which when I was first exiting seemed bitter and angry and un-worthy of attention.. I now see the beating heart of a social concience behind them.. and I thank those people for not softening.

We are a wide range of humanity here.. with a vast spectrum of stories and memories and glimpses of an individual truth.

As an exiting cult member (for this I can now accept as the truth)I do find myself with strong reactions to some peoples posts and their tone. I think I have a problem with male Authority figures... I feel sometimes defensive and 'got at' because for all my life as a Premie I NEVER allowed my feelings to be questioned, or even critically examined.

20 yrs practicing has left me hyper -sensitive in many ways.

BUT...

There is growth here... and the company of truth.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 12:48:32 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Loafsoft
Subject: hello Wolf
Message:

Welcome to F7. It's an interesting, never dull place where honesty prevails, not hate. If it was hate, I wouldn't be here. I can't stand hate. I do remember six or seven months ago, when I first arrived, the postings seemed stronger than they really were. I now understand it was my fragile and raw state. I was one of those Tonette spoke of; in it hook, line and sinker for nearly thirty years, not having one inkling of the real Mahararji, just the stage version.

Maybe you've been out for a while, and have the luxury of getting your life together, but the residual affects can be deep. This forum can be a catalyst that causes a separating action, then these false doctrines and truths can bubble to the top. Very healthy. Otherwise they hide and linger in our psyche, incapacitating us or even making us ill, and we have no idea why. Can you imagine going to a doctor, explaining symptoms but never divulging the years spent in the cult and the shock of exiting? The treatment could take years and still the root cause would not be eradicated. So yes, at times anger comes out and that isn't bad. It can facillitate healing. Staying angry forever might not be great.

In the beginning, I thought yes, Maharaji should fess up and apologize. It now amazes me to think of him in those terms of integrity. It would be like the chairman of Enron, the CEO's of the tobacco industry, Adolf Hitler, vaccine manufacturers, in short any intity that has made their millions off of scamming, conning, lying, abusing innocent people for their greedy gain. It just isn't going to happen. He knows he would be legally liable and he doesn't have enough money for the lawsuits that would ensue. Can you imagine?

Imagaine him admitting it was all a scam, he wasn't the lord incarnate. There's not a court in this country that wouldn't require him to make immediate restitution. It's called fraud. Have you ever known a corporation to admit to fraud? Not willingly. Look at Firestone and Ford.
No, Odwalla and Tylenol are the only two that took immediate responsibility in an open and frank way, sacrificing profits for public safety.

Maharaji is a thief. An out and out thief. He stole people's hearts, minds, bodies, lives, families, careers, trust funds, homes, food out of their babie's mouths, clothes off their children's backs, and affection for their parents, many of whom have long ago left this world. He also stole the innocense of childhood by bringing child molesting rapists to his devotee's children and not stopping it, thereby perpetuating it.

Yes Maharaji is a perfect master; he is the master of the perfect con.

So step in and get rid of the depression. Find a therapist who knows about the special affects cults have. Otherwise, start the process here of getting the infection out of your system. It's been there too long.

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