Marianne -:- Sympathy for the devil? -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:33:51 (EST)

__ Tonette -:- The insensitive, heartless, vulture -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 18:49:38 (EST)

__ Cynthia -:- Re: Sympathy for the devil?????? -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:14:30 (EST)

__ __ Vicki -:- Best of Forum -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 17:07:06 (EST)

__ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: Cynthia's response to Sympathy for the devil?? -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 14:13:05 (EST)

__ Jethro -:- The triangle is the answer -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 03:36:12 (EST)

__ PatD -:- Re: Sympathy for the devil? -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 22:46:39 (EST)

Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:33:51 (EST)
From: Marianne
To: All
Subject: Sympathy for the devil?

Things are really popping here. The contributions of all the new exes are wonderful, and bringing new insights to me. Plus, you are full of information about events old and new. Do tell!

Today, I was called the functional equivalent of Osama bin Laden by a premie. At first, I was really angry. Now that a few hours have passed, I want to thank that intelligent soul for having called me such an epithet. You showed us a great deal about yourself and your blind devotion to your master. You have given us a rare view into how truly isolated some premies have become in their dedication to Captain Rawat and how twisted and misguided in their thinking some have become.

I was not going to say anything in the thread where Sampuranand's death was discussed. Having suffered through more than my share of death at a very early age, loss is still loss, no matter who experiences it. Plus, I deal with death every single day in my work. I remained silent until some idjeet started calling exes who were angry about Sampuranand's possible role in covering up Jagdeo's sexual abuse 'vultures' and insensitive.

This raises the questions: should we feel sympathy for Rotwat under these circumstances? And, why do some premies ignore the extraordinary expressions of pain, sorrow, loss and compassion posted here and then rail at us for being insensitive vultures when Sampuranand dies?

I have my own theories about this, but I have to run out right now. Tell me what you think.


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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 18:49:38 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: The insensitive, heartless, vulture

Dear Marianne,

I can see why you got so angry in that post. You expressed a very personal event, ie, wanting to go home for Christmas shortly after you father's suicide. The reply to you is what I would define as the very things we were accused of: heartless, insensitive and inhuman.
I can tell you that I experienced loss at a very early age as well but not as painful. Loss from suicide is the worse sort of death for those of us left behind could ever encounter. My brother died, in his sleep, when I was 17, just a few months before I heard about M. I often wonder if my brother's death had not occurred, just how ripe would I had been for M's picking, but that is another story. Maybe I'll do a thread on it someday.
I too, deal with death and life as you do but in a different venue. I've seen many people die. I've been with several when they did, my own mother, a patient I was tending to. And many, many in the operating rooms, although they were not conscious. I have had many people very close to me die. My brother, my mom, my mother and father in law, and two from suicide. I can tell you without a shadow of doubt, that suicide leaves such pain for those of us left behind. I can not begin to imagine what the emotional stakes are when it happened to you with your father of all people. I know that the boy, who lived down the street, who took his life will always be with me in my heart. There's something about that kind of death that is so extraordinarlly painful. I have no doubt you understand what I am trying to say. There's never a resolution to death from suicide as there can be with death as a natural cycle of life. I am okay with my brother's death and my mother's but this death of this boy is something that I will always be sad about. The premie who posted to you after what you said in your post, and what he/she said to you is hardly recognizable as human in my book.
Do I feel sympathy for Ralwat? Am I allowed to laugh in this thread?
Let me lay it out as I've observed about Ralwat's sensitivity and grief to the death of those that he should grieve about.
The numerous premies who either committed suicide or died while in his ashram. I never heard that he attended any of their funerals nor sent a note to the family for that matter. Much less flowers. No acknowledgement whatsoever to a life that had dedicated themselves to him. That's heartless.
His own Mother, yes he went to her funeral but that's all he did. He shunned her at a very early age. I doubt she even knew her grandchildren. That is heartless.
Premies that have written him letters pleading their love in times of real distress and asking for just an answer, an acknowledgement that he hears them and cares. Did he ever answer any of these? Did he even read them? Nope, threw them in the trash as described by several PAM's who have posted here. That's heartless.
I would ask if Michael Dettmers or anyone else that could illuminate me on what M's reaction to death is to please answer. Death of those that he supposedly loves. Tears while drunk are not sincere. They don't count.

I would like to say to all those premies mourning Sampuranad's death to think again. What is this knee jerk reaction? Did you really know him?
Were you friends?
Are you so sad because you think M is sad?
Was he such a great guy? What great things did he do? Did he help Jagedo escape? Do you even know or care?
Sampuranand lived quite a long life. M continually reminds everyone of their mortality. A recurring variation on a theme. M says he teaches about life but he sure does alot of dwelling on the inevitable. Constantly reminds premies of the impending doom and gloom, death. What's with that?
Death is a process most of the time. Dying is easy. The actual leaving requires no participation on a human's part. I've know three people to die and come back. A close friend and two patients. All three of them told me that there was such peace while they were going down the tunnel towards the light. I know for a fact that they were clinically dead at the time. Now this may just be the brain cells giving the last hurrah or it could be an actual event. I'll have to die and see to know for sure.
I have 'dug down deep' to try and produce a shred of remorse for this individual and Maharaji in his loss. Nope, nothing, nada. Am I gleeful? No, I am discouraged. I think this PAM may of known about Jagedo's exodus to India and much information on how, when, where, and why Jagedo came there. Where he is now. How many children he raped in India. His history as perhaps no one else could tell it.
Do I feel remorse for M? The bigger question is, does M feel remorse? Is M even capable?

And premies, the likes that I witnessed in the thread below, are very capable and qualified to fling the insults that we witnessed. They know these words well because that is what they have become.

Take care,

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:14:30 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Sympathy for the devil??????

Dear Marianne,

Since it was I who first expressed no sympathy for the devil under the thread 'Sampuranand,' I want to respond.

First, I have no sympathy whatsoever for Rawat, regardless of what happens in his life. How could I? I've never done what he has done; I've never pretended to be the Lord of the Universe. I only bought into his evil plan to use and use and use his followers more than I ever dreamt possible. I have come to know that maharaji is dangerous and evil.

My devotion to him was real in my heart, mind, and soul, and maharaji proved to be a thief of my heart and soul and spirituality, as well as my emotional health, my physical health which affects me to this day. Now, I don't even know what a soul is or if such a thing exists. I slaved for him with the reward being nothing but more demands, plus the ''love of the lord.'' He told me that ultimate lie. Maharaji had no sympathy for me when I collapsed after a year of slaving for him at DECA; he, through his minions threw me away to fend for myself--there was no real protection in the ashram, although he said the ashrams were his hospitals, his houses, the place where ''true refuge could be found.''

Now that devotion is called gratitude, I feel hurt to the marrow that maharaji has never once said to me ''Thank you for all your help and hard work and sacrifice.'' No sympathy for him from me. Ever. Perhaps I have developed a hard, unbreakable hull around my figurative heart in order to protect myself from his betrayal. That crusty hull is reserved for Maharaji, fake Lord of the Universe, who betrayed me beyond my wildest conception of betrayal. I am learning what real human love is now that I am free of his bondage.

Now that I see through his lies, now that I have proof of his lies, I know that those premies who come here to be distruptive, insulting, and cruel are caught in that lie. They cannot have compassion for us, that, in cult programed minds would be a betrayal of maharaji. Premies are trained to be like their master, but beneath him.. Those who have come here emulate his behavior: cruel, manipulating and ignorant. They can't understand the cult exiting process, the losses we suffered because of our involvement with that charlatan because they are still caught in the web of his deception. I don't excuse it, I understand it though. But I don't excuse it.

Why premies feel so desparate to protect maharaji is the last gasp of holding onto a fake God, years of brainwashing. Yet, in the past year, some of these people have done great damage to you and others here by using their various evil devices (CAC, hacking, etc.) not only to discredit, but to personally harm you. I have no sympathy for the likes of these deluded indivuals. I have empathy for those who read this forum and EPO, then one by one come here, afraid to post their names because of that intense cult indoctrination, yet take that leap, not of faith, but of the desire to rid themselves of that thick layer of cult brainwashing. They find relief in the welcoming. The layer of deceit begins to unwrap for these new exes, as well as those of us who have been here a while, exposing raw grief. For these people I feel great sympathy and empathy.

My understanding of the brainwashing by maharaji of premies is very clear, and yet, there is no excuse for the bad behavior and horrid words posted here in defense of a cult leader who has an extraordinary ability to lie, cheat, steal, and abuse those same followers who support his life's goal. That life's goal is not to be kind, nurturing, humanitarian, or even to reveal the ''Truth,'' rather it is to run a cult family business, using other people's money, people who love him above all else, to fill his personal coffers with a massive amount of cash, and things--expensive things, while he dupes his followers into being so afraid of him they can't even muster the courage to ask him a question--he denies them even that. Sympathy for maharaji? Never.

I'm not so good at expressing myself in words here. I look to find a word that describes what Maharaji has done to me personally, to all the ex-premies who have come here to find relief and understanding, and the thousands of premies who have given so much more than he could ever deserve. I cannot find a proper word for what he has done.

Maharaji lost a close friend. I wonder if he has the capacity to feel grief and loss. I don't think so. I suspect he is thinking only about himself and what he lost in Sampuranand as another cultist who protected him and advised him about how to further exploit his devotees.


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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 17:07:06 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Best of Forum

My god, Cynthia, this is an incredible post. You dwelve into the depths of devotion for which we are said to never have experienced.
I have a new theory, ex'es are the real 'premies' as in premie means lover, just lover, not premieprempalji, and everyone here loves the truth, embraced the truth, no matter what the emotional pain. We all went to knowledge looking for truth, but what we found was a blatant lie. That didn't stop us, we are still seeking the truth, of what all this was really about, so we can be allowed to be our true, free selves. You covered it well.

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 14:13:05 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Cynthia's response to Sympathy for the devil??

Thank you, Cynthia! Wonderful summary expressed with such elegance!
My heart was nodding, yes, yes, the whole time I read it.

When I broke the news of my exing to my 27 year old stepson, pretty much saying everything you said here but not as well as you have here, he said to me: 'Dad, that guy is really evil. On a smaller scale, maybe, he's as bad as Hitler. How could you have not seen how evil he was before this?' To which I responded: 'Now you understand the nature of brainwashing.'

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 03:36:12 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: The triangle is the answer

'And, why do some premies ignore the extraordinary expressions of pain, sorrow, loss and compassion posted here and then rail at us for being insensitive vultures when Sampuranand dies? '

A premie's world is simple. It has ONLY 3 things in it. M,K and last (and by all means least for M) the premie. A premie may only direct his 'human' feelings towards M all others are secondry, if not irrelevant. A classic example of cognitive dissonence.

Here's a prime example.
One of my (I think now former) friends has had k since 1973(not a PAM). I went to see him some years ago in Australia. His first wife died and had one child with her who is now an adult.
He remarried after the ashram closure to another ashramee. This lady is a good few years younger than him and was certainly of child-bearing age. I asked him if he intended to have any children with her(she hadn't any kids).

His answer was this, said with a big grin
'Whenever that sweet feeling(a woman's desire to bear children),arises in her, I destroy it'.
I should add here that he didn't mean that he beat her up, rather he 'satsanged' her out of that feeling.

'This raises the questions: should we feel sympathy for Rotwat under these circumstances? '

Yes, the same sympathy held for Hitler when he realised his Reich was falling.

Take care,


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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 22:46:39 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Sympathy for the devil?

Of course you can have sympathy for the devil,that's what draws his sting. Does the devil have sympathy....No ,that's what makes him a devil.

We can't know Rawat's feelings for the people closest to him, but there's no reason to assume, him being notgod, that they're any different to anyone elses.

The devil in all this is his assumption of divinity, & our acceptance of it.

I felt sympathy for Gordon Brown (UK Gov.Minister)last week when his newborn baby died. Doesn't mean I'll vote for his party at the next election.

The premie who called you Cynthia & Tonette insensitive, feels himself to be part of a family of lurve.

Too bad that daddy doesn't give a shit.

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