La-ex -:- Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll) -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 14:59:55 (GMT)

__ Gary Epton -:- Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll) -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 06:03:16 (GMT)

__ Katie H -:- Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll) -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 13:46:25 (GMT)

__ __ Katie H. -:- BTW, I do have more reasons - uh oh -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:52:05 (GMT)

__ Bryn -:- Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll) -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 11:46:19 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Bryn, thanks for saying this -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 19:18:47 (GMT)

__ Marianne -:- Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll) -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 10:24:35 (GMT)

__ Brian Smith -:- Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll) -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:10:02 (GMT)

__ Chuck Sprague -:- Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll) -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:10:33 (GMT)

__ __ Dermot -:- Chuck..what happened at Atlanta?? nt -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:37:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Atlanta ''Propaganda Seminar'' re-post, Dermot -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:57:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Another ***BEST OF FORUM*** for J-M -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:24:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ donner -:- Atlanta ''Propaganda Seminar'' re-post, Dermot -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:23:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Donner, did you say ''amazing guts'' or -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:19:52 (GMT)

__ Pat Conlon -:- Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll) -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:09:22 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll) -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:25:20 (GMT)

__ __ Selene -:- oh and lest I forget, on leaving - THE VIDEOS! -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:38:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- oh yes THE HALITOSIS AD VIDEOS! -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:13:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Selene -:- hahahaha oh god that's funny -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:23:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- He defuses errors by making pre-emptive jokes NT -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:41:32 (GMT)

__ AJW -:- I got involved because... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:51:42 (GMT)

__ Dermot -:- Here ya go mate ...123 -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:47:37 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Twins separated at birth, Dermot -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:16:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ Dermot -:- Pat....another thing bout that trinket stall -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:44:16 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Not so easy, LAX -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:15:22 (GMT)

__ __ Mercedes -:- Jim you have a real problem... -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 03:10:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Well that's nice! Why do you say that? -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 16:42:41 (GMT)

__ __ la-ex -:- Not so easy, LAX/the second one, Jim. -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:54:15 (GMT)

__ __ AJW -:- Not so easy, LAX -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:55:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ donner -:- Not so easy, LAX -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:37:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ Lesley -:- okey dokey, LAX -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:32:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Selene -:- the revisionism -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:36:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Selene it's 1-3 not 1-100 -:)) (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:48:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- ok!! I must stop I know -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:55:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- ok!! I must stop I know -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:07:53 (GMT)

__ Richard -:- Great questions La-ex. Here are my reasons. -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 16:59:45 (GMT)

__ __ michael donner -:- Great questions La-ex. Here are my reasons. -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:04:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- once a catholic always a recovering ex catholic -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:36:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ Dermot -:- Great questions La-ex. Here are my reasons. -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:03:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- A close catholic / maharaji cult parallel -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:33:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Pat the Fat Fag -:- That also prevented fooling around -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 03:57:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- Why from alpha to omega -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 03:25:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- I'm glad I didn't throw away that Atlanta video -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 04:01:37 (GMT)

Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 14:59:55 (GMT)
From: La-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll)
Message:

Based on some posts below with Mike Donner, I'd like to ask everyone:

1)Why they got involved with M in the first place?(one or two of the top reasons)
2)Also, why did they stay for as long as they did?
3)Also, what was the 'final straw' for them that led them to leave?

I think a list would be very interesting...it might make an interesting summary to be put on a page for newcomers questioning their involvement...

I'm working on mine, will post them later...

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 06:03:16 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: epton@magma.ca
To: La-ex
Subject: Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll)
Message:

I got involved 'cuz I was shown an undeniable source of 'peace' inside.
I hung around 'cuz I trusted him implicitly.
I left him 'cuz he betrayed that trust by his actions: lack of responsibility and love and commitment towards those who dedicated their lives to him; revelations of hypocritical and dysfunctional behaviours; noticed that despite numerous fund-raising drives and revised methods of propogation the actual number of people receiving k and hanging around had dwindled.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 13:46:25 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll)
Message:

Hi La-ex -
Why I got involved in the first place?

Two reasons. I was 16, had been doing a lot of spiritual searching, sometimes in pretty weird places. Also, my parents had mostly abdicated responsibility for me and their other kids starting when I was around age 14, which was quite scary. So what attracted me was:

1. The promise of easy enlightenment. I had read a LOT of spiritual books, and they all made it seem like it would take forever. The story on knowledge (at the time, anyway) was that it would change you overnight.

2. The attraction of an ordered lifestyle in a community. Basically, I wanted someone to care about me and tell me not to do self-destructive things. Maharaji had rules (back THEN, anyway), and the other premies in the community did really care.

What kept me in?
Well, receiving K was a big disappointment. Then I started thinking it was MY fault that it didn't work - if I could only be more devoted, or 'better' in some way, I would experience more. I heard people all around me talking about the great experiences they were having, so I was hoping I could feel that too.

Also, I was afraid to leave because of the rotten vegetables and other threats, and fear that Maharaji had supernatural powers and would make me go nuts if I didn't practice K.

What was the final straw?
I've already described this in detail recently, but it was realizing that DLM/EV was just another religion. Also, I grew up, to put it simply, and grew out of my need for a substitute parent.

Thanks for asking - good questions!
Take care,
Katie

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:52:05 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: LAX
Subject: BTW, I do have more reasons - uh oh
Message:

Particularly the fear of apocalypse/save the world motivation, and thinking that it would 'fix' everything if everyone could be premies.

Every time I think about this, I come up with a different angle. It's a complicated topic - difficult to summarize in a paragraph!

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 11:46:19 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: Bryndaviesesq@hotmail
To: La-ex
Subject: Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll)
Message:

Got involved because of unconscious Mesiah/christian conditioning. Also high self expectation and idealism.

Stayed because of social re-enforcement. Also inner collapse of self due to no instruction about significance of k.techniques.

No final straw as such. Discovery of a rational body of literature on western esoteric experience. Forum info revaaled my potential for projection and self delusion. Prior to forum I had not evolved a language to reflect on M-his attributes and supposed attributes.
love bryn

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 19:18:47 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: Bryn, thanks for saying this
Message:

You said one of the reasons for leaving the cult was ''discovery of a rational body of literature on western esoteric experience.''

Thanks, yes we do have as much in our culture to do with metaphysics as anything that has come from India and is is often free of primitve superstitions and is not amoral or unethical.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 10:24:35 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: La-ex
Subject: Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll)
Message:

Hi la-ex.

I got involved (November '72) because I wanted to change the world. I was only 16. Captain Rawat and DLM were then telling us that practicing knowledge was going to end war and hunger, that there would be 1000 years of peace. I wanted to be a part of that. I also wanted the extended family that I got in the ashram as mine was self destructing.

I stayed for 4 years, because I believed what I had been told about the cult master and the cult.

I left for a couple of reasons: I was working in the jails in San Francisco counselling inmates and helping them prepare for re-entry into the community. They had nothing. Captain Rawat and DLM had no interest in dealing with the real, everyday problems of people in desperate need. Then there was a big push to send money for the Malibu house. The contrast between the prisoners' lives and Captain Rawat's was too extreme for me. I couldn't justify giving him more money for something he did not need when these people I dealt with nearly every day could have changed their lives with a few hundred dollars -- gotten decent places to live, schooling, a modest car to drive to work, etc.

I also realized that I could do something meaningful in the world myself, without him, which could really help other people in a material way -- by becoming a criminal defense lawyer. So I guess I had an ephiphany: Rawat was greedy, other people are in dire need and he doesn't care, and I had the power to change the world myself.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:10:02 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll)
Message:

Good questions and a good excercise in examining our experience

1)Why they got involved with M in the first place?(one or two of the top reasons)
2)Also, why did they stay for as long as they did?
3)Also, what was the 'final straw' for them that led them to leave?

I had grown tried and distrustful of convenional religions, I was a real seeker of truth and checked out everything with an inquiring mind. At age 23, After a near death experience, (like Chuck mentioned below) I became deeply comitted to exploring the answers to my mortality and discovering the purpose of life. I was haunted by the idea that something was going on and I was missing it, I wanted to know what that greater purpose was.

I stumbled on to Maharaji in June 72 when I saw a poster announcing this 14 year old perfect masters visit to the city where I live, I gathered up all of my family and friends that I could and went to see him speak, he never showed up, most everyone else with me that night thought that it was because he was afraid of the christian demonstators. To me it represented the kind of irreverance and cavalier attitude that
exemplified supreme confidence of purpose and mission. This was exactly what I was looking for, How could anyone call an event and not show and still expect you to believe what they were saying about him unless he truly was the Lord incarnate. And they were calling him the Lord of the Universe and singing it and shouting it.
In my ignorance I interpreted it as a test of faith, I was hooked and I put everything in my life on hold and followed m to montrose and half way around the world for years.

Mata Ji, Bal Bagwan Ji and Bhole Ji were all sitting around on stage surrounded by flowers and mahatma's. It was a very heady evening for me and I was enchanted by it all, I had to know more,
I was obviously ripe for the picking.

I stayed 28 years and I rationalized all of M's many slight of hand moves and manipulations as lila, I was blinded by my illusion of devotion. I had many good experiences along the way and I tended to rely on eurphoric recall whenever anything distasteful about the cult and m presented itself.

I eventually drifted to the perifery, then again a couple of years ago I attempted to support the local church ladies and do service but the atmosphere was so filled with paranoia and power tripping that I threw my hands up and stayed out of it after a few months of wierdness.

I continued to do what I do best up until Dec of 2000, which was bring new folks to the videos events and recruit people to the cult. That all came to to a sudden stop after finding this site Dec/7/00, after just 6 (six) weeks of researching the data base and posting my own experiences I publicly reclaimed my freedom from the cult, posted my full name and am still processing and cleansing as of now.
It is good to be free and awake and I am making amends now to all of those that I mislead along the way.

The final straw was finding out the truth about m and the cult from others who spoke freely of their experience without fear.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:10:33 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: La-ex
Subject: Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll)
Message:

Good questions:
1)Why they got involved with M in the first place?(one or two of the top reasons)
2)Also, why did they stay for as long as they did?
3)Also, what was the 'final straw' for them that led them to leave?

My answers:

1.) A close brush with death left me feeling vulnerable. It left me distrusting all concepts and beliefs about religion and life after death. M. was offer something that, he said, was not a concept, not a religion, and certainly not a cult, but an EXPERIENCE. My brush with death left me feeling very much in the present moment, and grateful for my life. I wanted to stay in that space, but without feeling terrified of death all the time. I had hopes that the meditation M. taught might be a practical way to do that.

2.) I came to Knowlege through the hippy-gay community of the Haight Ashbury. The Premies were mostly loving and fun to be with, if somewhat wacky. They had a healthy disregard for all the religious aspects of M and K, which reassured me. The hindu stuff started to dissapear in the 1980's, M. seemed less distant for a time, and I had high hopes he would really spread Knowledge in the west. The meditation did help me, in that it gave me a quiet, inner strenghth I hadn't been in touch with before. It didn't completely take away my fear of death, but it did help me to stay more in the present moment, and I came to see the fear of death as a healthy and natural thing anyway. Medition has helped me accept a lot of mysteries of life that can't be explained, to not bother about questions for which there are no answers (like what happens to you after you die). I had misgivings about a lot of the stuff surrounding M. and M. himself, but the good parts kept me going, and helped me tolerate the rest.

3.) Over the years, the hindu stuff started comming back, sometimes only moderately disguised. I had accepted a ''guru'' in 1981, which I was told meant ''teacher''. When M. began calling himself the Master all the time, it made me very uncomfortable. He began to emphasise the importance of himself more and more, and his satsang often sounded arrogant and self-serving. Getting invovled with the Participation Committee forced me to see that I was being used, as a resource to promote lies about M., using K. and Meditation as merely a lure to interest people in becoming devoted to M.

The final straw was the Atlanta Propagation Seminar. It made me ill. It was a dager in my heart. What he was saying and doing was something I would only have associated with a cult like the Moonies. I could not deny I was part of a cult. I felt we were simply being used to brainwash people, and propagation was all about gettting new devotees to increase the base of cash doners.

As ugly as that was, it forced me to face facts. All the ''good'' things I ever got through Knowlege were from my own efforts, and I could keep those and continue growing. No one needs a Master, except lower life forms like domestic animals.

The information on EPO helped me alot, but the real final push was the UGLINESS of what M. and his organization are doing, and how the greed, secrecy and lies are just too great for any reasonable, thinking person to ignore anymore. The biggest obtacle to spreading ANY kind of real knowledge is M. himself.

- Chuck, who is grateful to be enjoying life with both eyes open now, with the help of real friends, not an imaginary one.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:37:16 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Chuck..what happened at Atlanta?? nt
Message:

zz

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:57:34 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Atlanta ''Propaganda Seminar'' re-post, Dermot
Message:

Propagation Seminar in Atlanta, 2000

Maharaji addresses an audience of about 80 to 100 people in a hotel ballroom. The Pewks are seated around the edges of three sides and Rev Rawat occupies the fourth side surrounded by an array of corporate CEO-type sales-hype toys: a white drawing board, desk with laptop PC, lectern etc.

He walks around all through the sermon with a felt-tip pen in his hand acting very dotcommy, with one hand in his pocket and (I kid you not) his tongue often in his cheek. He sticks his tongue in the left cheek pouch between his bottom teeth and bottom lip whenever he tells a joke or says something which he thinks is profound or clever. While doing this fifth technique he is pulling a face which I think is meant to be a kooool California smile or perhaps a Bush-lite smirk.

The sermon is about the who, what, how of propagating Knowledge. Examples:

''Should everybody have Knowledge?'' He asks and puts his tongue in his cheek.

Then he looks at audience mischievously smirks and says: ''I see some of you nodding and others shaking their heads.''

He then does not answer the question (as he never does answer any questions) but non-sequiturs into another topic.

He blames the mahatmas for introducing Hinduism and says that it is not fair to blame him for this as some people do because he has said from the beginning that it is not a religion. He speaks as if the audience knows of the criticisms being levelled at him. The audience is after all quite exclusive, mostly rich Pewks and industrial strength church ladies.

He tells them that the most dangerous time to talk about Knowledge is when they are ''feeling that fuzzy feeling, you know the warm fuzzy feeling.'' He then says that it is dangerous because they will introduce concepts about who Maharaji is and that they should have NO concepts about the Master neither about what he is or isn't. And that they do not have to exaggerate his accomplishments or importance even if they are tempted too.

With his last pronouncement he puffs himself up and grins as the audience applauds. All those self-conscious flirtatious attention-getting tactics used to work when he was a chubby pretty little boy but he is now a dumpy, jowly, pompous old fool. The whole act comes off as a spin-control to the share-holders. These Pewks are after all the financial back-bone of the industry in the west. He looks like a huckster trying to impress pyramid scheme suckers that their ''investment'' will pay off big eventually.

Every five minutes or so he walks over to the desk and pushes just one key on the laptop then turns and swivels the pen in the air and says things like: ''Somewhere in Canada there is one guy who has shown the most impressive figures so far. I mean he is bringing more people to Maharaji than anybody else. How does he do it? Well, let me show you.''

He goes to the drawing board. It already has a wobbly circle drawn on it. He draw a small wedge in the circle with his felt-tip pen and says, ''This is how small a part actual propagation, introducing someone to Knowledge for the first time, is. The rest is keeping them there.''

He then wipes the small wedge out and turns to the audience with a flourish. They applaud and he grins from ear to ear having just demonstrated what a wonderful CEO he really is in that he was able to draw a wedge inside a pre-drawn circle and then erase it.

''So how does this guy do it?'' he asks; ''What is he doing right that make his figures the most impressive? Well, apparently this guy has studied every video in the local library and knows them all so well that he knows just exactly the right video to give to the right person to introduce them to Maharaji. That is the way to propagate Knowledge.''

Enough already. I have simply written what I saw not what I was thinking when I saw it. Let it speak for itself. He is truly an embarassment to civilized, intelligent people. It is hard to believe that people like John Horton were in the audience. Well, actually maybe not. I've known plenty of other dumb doctors in my 30 years in that business.

When it is over you come away not having learned anything. He has not answered any specific questions. He has told them that everybody should have Knowledge but that not everybody will be interested. He has said that they should tell people about Knowledge but that they should not talk about it. He has basically again said nothing as usual - hot air.

But the Pewks got the vibe I guess and that got them high and they felt so inspired and then they just wanted to tell everybody the good news when they got home but of course no one really wanted to here about a greedy selfish guru and they couldn't talk about it anyway so it's back to straightening out white table cloths at the video event held every week for the one aspirant who does not always show up.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:24:15 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Another ***BEST OF FORUM*** for J-M
Message:

Great post, Pat!

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:23:03 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Atlanta ''Propaganda Seminar'' re-post, Dermot
Message:

what a great story...nice to know that things haven't changed really since he use to do the same...none answers...amazing guts really.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:19:52 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Donner, did you say ''amazing guts'' or
Message:

a helluva pair of nuts? Either he's got a lot of chutzpah (balls in English) or he spends too much time practicing in front of a mirror and has forgotten left from right, right from wrong and good from evil. Needs a reality check.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:09:22 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll)
Message:

1) Got involved because the hippie/commune/revolution thing was falling to pieces and I thought the urug could be the leader who would unite us again in our dream of peace and love.

2) Stayed involved for 28 years because ..... see above.

3) Left because I saw that urug could not do above and actually was doing the opposite; when I saw that the Merry Prankster was Big Brother. Well, actually Big Brother's little brother, the incompetent, lazy drunken one, you know - like Hilly and Billy's embarassing brothers.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:25:20 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll)
Message:

1. Idealism, nothing else going on, lack of identity, a boyfriend who I was in love with, group hysteria and brainwashing.

2. Staye dbecause I never questioned it deeply and M made a big 'comback' late in late 80's and 90's and I caught the group get together bug again. Also had an influencial friend who I had really cared about who was a fanatic and I kind of envied her devotion, believed it was her touchstone and her salvation even though she was every bit as fucked up as me.

3. Left because the last two events I went to gave me the creeps because of the premie behavior, and because by 1997 I had changed and didn't NEED the group thing.

but as Jim said, it's hard to pinoint it all. This is an over simplification for me. But it hits the key points.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:38:59 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ps to why I left
Subject: oh and lest I forget, on leaving - THE VIDEOS!
Message:

over and over. Every Sunday afternoon at some library or other place, under the anonymous name of 'World Wide Resources'
And the endless awful videos at the events and I hated them and squirmed in my seat. Learned to always try for an aisle seat. And looking around me and wondering, 'are they seeing something I'm not or are they nuts?'

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:13:27 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: oh yes THE HALITOSIS AD VIDEOS!
Message:

With flying swans, rippling water and shifting clouds. I always expected them to end by saying: ''This tampon can be inserted without discomfort.''

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:23:01 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: hahahaha oh god that's funny
Message:

And the saddest funny part about the tampon videos? I was sitting in one of the LB b'day fiascos toward the end, 97 maybe, when he MADE LOTS OF FUN of the nature videos.

I remember thinking well, why did you let them happen then? And also because of the work I do, thinking , these people put their heart and soul into producing these because they love M. (that's what I thought Bazza could maybe correct me or fill me in)
But I do remember thinking that. As IF he didnt' see each and every little detail that was shown at those things and could not have stopped the 'swans' that were being presented as late as 96.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:41:32 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: He defuses errors by making pre-emptive jokes NT
Message:

j

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:51:42 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: I got involved because...
Message:

Hi La-ex

Here's my two guilders worth.

Why did I get involved in the first place?

1. Brains scrambled on acid.
2. Timothy Leary said we all need a guru.
3. The Beatles and Rollings Stones had one, why shouldn't I?
4. Think I'm smart but can be very stupid.
5. Fate
6. Bad Karma
7. Bad Luck.

Why did I stay so long?

1. A big fish in a little puddle.
2. Fame and power.
3. I liked singing Arti.
4. Think I'm smart but can be very stupid.
5. We'd sold our house to move into the Ashram, and hence had nowhere to live.
6. Couldn't think of anything better to do.
7. I had faith.
8. I was brainwashed.
9. I wanted to devote my life to the God I'd seen on acid.
10. I like vegetarian food.

What was the final straw that made me leave?

It had to be the premie security guard throwing a mother and tiny baby out of a warm dry hall, into an awful rainstorm, 'because it was programme policy.'

Anth drippety dooh-dah.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:47:37 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: Here ya go mate ...123
Message:

1.Bit burnt out from too much acid.....succeptible to the charms ofsome dope smoking premie friends 'mind blowing cosmic satsang'.......then the Mission took control and finished off the brain washing.

2.Because I'm the worlds biggest fucking chump.

3.left and returned many times from 70s to 90s but I suppose the 'final straw', funnily enough was 'Rawts trinket divine sales bazaar' at longbeach 96. Though that certainly wasnt the all defining motivating trigger......it just happened to be the 'final straw'

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:16:56 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Twins separated at birth, Dermot
Message:

You said: ''....left and returned many times from 70s to 90s but I suppose the 'final straw', funnily enough was 'Rawts trinket divine sales bazaar' at longbeach 96.''

Me too left and went back. That divine trinket sale in that huge hall certainly was more than a big drip - more like a mini tsunami.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:44:16 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Pat....another thing bout that trinket stall
Message:

Afriend of mine who I've lost touch ....but he and his wife were avid sincere premies....but more into feeling and expressing love as opposed to fanatical cultist madness.....turned to me at one point and said ' I feel like I'm in a cult'. I was so surprised because it was so out of character for him to say something like that.

Lost touch with them now ......maybe they are still premies.....dunno.

But wasnt it just fucking over the top in that hall hahahhaha just blatant commercial greed and exploitation run riot hahhaha

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:15:22 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: Not so easy, LAX
Message:

You're going to get two different kinds of answers. There are the answers like 'I was interested in .....' 'so when my friend invited me to ......'

Straightforward and really, when you think of it, not that interesting. I mean, we all pretty much know that shit anyway.

But then you're going to get all sorts of psychological theories too. Stuff like 'I got knowledge because I was looking for the immediacy I never had with my real father ....' or 'I had such low self-esteem, coming as I did from an entirely codependent family, that I needed a firewall from the real world ...'

What are you looking for?

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 03:10:12 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim you have a real problem...
Message:

yeah...I think you need a shrink.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 16:42:41 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Well that's nice! Why do you say that?
Message:

What are you talking about? Do I need a shrink to help me in my Recovery? Please, Mercedes, tell me about it.

(This should be funny)

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:54:15 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Not so easy, LAX/the second one, Jim.
Message:

I wasn't looking for the mundane answer, like 'my friend brought me to the program'....

More like your second answer...the personal reasons for getting involved...things you might understand now, but didn't see then...the 'inner story'(sorry if I sound like Tim Gallwey)...

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:55:28 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jimstrodamus
Subject: Not so easy, LAX
Message:

I didn't think you were into all that predicting the future stuff Jim.

So come on, why did you get involved? Why did you stay? What was the final straw?

Anth the sarcy echo.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:37:22 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Not so easy, LAX
Message:

good catch anth!

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:32:16 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: okey dokey, LAX
Message:

1. the one reason that stands out above all others is that I simply did not understand that a person could be deluded. I instinctively was attracted to and trusted the premie I met and it did not occur to me to question whether he knew what he was talking about because of his obvious sincerity. Though I was not brought up a catholic, again, it simply did not occur to me that god and jesus were in the same category as santa claus, so the story fitted my preconditioning.

2. Darshan has nothing to do with 'divine love', it is our own very human emotions being manipulated.

3. I realised I was deluded, and then I realised why, bye bye no more listening at the feet of the master for me.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:36:41 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: the revisionism
Message:

I wanted to add that to my leaving reasons but have already added to it once.
How arrogant he is, to think that those of us who fell for one con would just shift gears, smirk amongst ourselves about his business savvy, and stick around for more under a new image?
Many have though.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:48:22 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Selene it's 1-3 not 1-100 -:)) (nt)
Message:

zz

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:55:15 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: ok!! I must stop I know
Message:

I have 63 conferences to delete. Time to try to work on work.
But the revisionism and watching the rationalizations was a big drip for me.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:07:53 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: ok!! I must stop I know
Message:

Selene.....I was going to do some work ( urgent work as well ) this evening and haven't done a thing but read the forum ......I'm gonna have a break till the week-end or I'll be living in a cardboard box asking buddy for a dime -:)

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 16:59:45 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: Great questions La-ex. Here are my reasons.
Message:

I spent 3 days writing my soon to be published Journey so condensing will be a challenge but here goes.

1)Why I got involved with M in the first place?

Wanting to transcend my mundane existence. > Radical politics. > Awakening via psychtropic drugs and wanting to go beyond that. > Yoga. > Autobiography of a Yogi. > Be Here Now. > Stranger in a Strange Land, etc. > The word from a trusted source that Sat Guru had come.

2)Also, why did I stay for as long as I did?

Darshan and holy breath at Montrose provided unexplainable, formerly unattained conciousness (non-ordinary / transcendant experiences). The need to be part of a noble cause = save humanity. Acknowledgement and being valued for my skills. Need to be 'special'. Group agreement.

3)Also, what was the 'final straw' for me that led me to leave?

Several years of body/emotional work = group work, rebirthing/breathing, losing weight. Through all that I gained an inner authority that led me to reject M as an authoritarian bully. Came to a head at a 1987 knowledge review with M where he flippantly said 'you know you don't have to practice knowledge' - a precursor of the more arrogant 'if you don't like knowledge just walk'. I felt it cut through me like a spear to the solar plexus and realized I had being believing I HAD TO practice knowledge. At that point I decided to not totally reject M&K but to 'choose' it if I wanted it again. After choosing a 1994 nostalgic revisit to M&K I again rejected it as a seductively authoritarian trip.

4)Why do I participate on this forum? (this dovetails nicely with the other questions)

To help myself reclaim the positive aspects of the '1972 Richard' and lose the dependant aspects that needed the Perfect Authoritarian. To find out more about why I got involved. To share ideas and information with the other sincere seekers of truth. Help give current devotees a reasonable option.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:04:14 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Great questions La-ex. Here are my reasons.
Message:

my top two are intertwined some. to save the world via a combination of spiritualism and socialism (cum DUO, ashrams/collectives, etc). the catholic part of me regarded being an apostle of the lord as the highest calling of a human. so the combination offered by m was powerful as it played into those predispositions. he was a young (fitting some prophecies), charismatic leader, combining universal type spritualism and allowing me to play out my apostle need to help bring about a kingdom of heaven on earth. hooked for a long time.

to stay on was another matter. each new incarnation gave hope that my first hit of m was perhaps true afterall. leaving worship to become a humanitarian leader..no, backsliding again into devotion. no, beginning to finally create western initiators to really begin to spread knowledge and finally bring peace to all corners. no, back to devotion to him so he removed the intermediaries. oh, the part about part-time instructors got me again from 85 -87...real community based family men and women who could relate to the local folks...yes, that was the model that might just work...no, back to devotion and worship and removing the local intermediaries.

michael still a recovering ex-catholic, once a catholic always a recovering ex catholic.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:36:56 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: once a catholic always a recovering ex catholic
Message:

That is truly disturbing, on top of just reading Jim's post below about being taught it was ok to be in groups but not just alone with another, not just 2.
I do not remember being taught that, but that's the point in a way, I don't remember a LOT of what I was taught but I will always remember the sense of guilt and being BAD that accompanied those lessons, for me 3 times a week after school in the Church basement and Saturday mronings at the 'Parish' . we were primed for M's shit.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:03:12 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Great questions La-ex. Here are my reasons.
Message:

haha that back and forth stuff was funny. Yup ....another ex-catholic here......my 81 yo ma is still praying for my soul.....'faith of our fathers holy faith , we will be true to you till death' .....do they sing that in American catholic churches?

PS no offence meant when I've been spouting off about PAMS ....been prettty gung ho this evening -:))

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:33:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: A close catholic / maharaji cult parallel
Message:

Hi Michael,

A few years ago someone showed me a book he had from when he was a young, catholic kid in Quebec. It was filled with all sorts of proscriptions as you, a catholic, might imagine (and which I'd describe better but I can't recall specifically). One stood out, one I do remember: kids were prohibited from hanging out in two's. Three or more was okay but two's were out. Why? Because, as the book frankly, explained, it was too easy for doubts to arise and circulate in a dialogue between two people than in larger groups. I dunno, that really struck me as the kind of mind control we wrestled with. I think the book was for some sort of catholic summer school or camp or something.

Jim
In Denial

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 03:57:08 (GMT)
From: Pat the Fat Fag
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That also prevented fooling around
Message:

which many little catholic school boys did - especially in my boarding school and also later big boys did in the monastery.

It was the cruelty and sadism of my teachers (I was beaten every night for 3 months when I first went to boarding school by a vicious Quebecois Marist Brother ''to break my will) which left a scar for quite some time.

Seem to be hell of a lot of ex-catholics here. Chuck who was raised protestant never quite got the hang of the Hindu drag and incense juju like I did.

Catholics were ripe for the plucking after all that mystical mumbo-jumbo and ritual theatricality and mind-boggling beliefs such as transubstantiation, the ascension, the assumption and the immaculate conception which were Holy Dogma! Ta-da!

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 03:25:57 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: La Ex
Subject: Why from alpha to omega
Message:

I was a gullible 18 year old. No self esteem (sorry Jim), idealistic. I was dazzled by the incense and satsang and altars (yeap recovering catholic alright).
Stayed because I had no where else to go, family had outcasted me and had no inner strengh. Won't go into detail suffice it to say I experienced a lot of abuse and suffered from that syndrome so I stayed.
left once, when I got married, when divorced I felt being called again. It was the safety of the old known stuff.
Straw that broke the cammel's back: started with the Atlanta video, he was so arrogant, still thought it was my critical mind.
Yeah therapy and after Oxnard I came in contact with this website. So I left, walked, good bye baby.
There you have it in a nutshell.
Mercedes

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 04:01:37 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: I'm glad I didn't throw away that Atlanta video
Message:

It is priceless. It was also the final straw for me. It was obvious that he was insincere and narcissistic.

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