Welcome to All the Presidents Men
They're All coming out of the closet . . . one by one.
Best of the Forum Index

Guy Rollins -:- First post -- best wishes -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 07:07:40 (GMT)

__ Katie Darling (Baier) -:- First post -- best wishes -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:19:30 (GMT)

__ Alan Fenstermacher -:- First post -- best wishes -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:08:30 (GMT)

__ Joy -:- There's a Few from IHQ Here -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:42:52 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Hello Guy -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 16:34:20 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- welcome Guy -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 16:02:21 (GMT)

__ Cynthia -:- Hey Guy, How are you? Remember me? -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 15:50:41 (GMT)

__ Michael Dettmers -:- Welcome Guy -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 12:59:01 (GMT)

__ __ Mark Appleman -:- Welcome to All the Presidents Men -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:03:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ bill -:- My name included was a typo?:) -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:45:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ la-ex -:- Welcome to All the Presidents Men:Mark, a few ?'s. -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:25:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Mark -:- Welcome to All the Presidents Men:Mark, a few ?'s. -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 13:19:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Thanks Mark, I will.We've spoken before...nt -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:19:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ Dermot -:- Ha ! Funny , informative ..really INTERESTING nt -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:47:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ Postie -:- Bravo Mark.... except one question FA -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:39:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Mark -:- Bravo Mark.... except one question FA -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 19:37:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Koran ... Caron ?? -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 23:14:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- Caron was one of my good friends, too! (nt -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:46:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Mark.... about naming names -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:58:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Mark, I agree -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 19:54:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Mark -:- But I might not -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:33:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Well, then let's be clear here -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:48:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Mark, I agree - your intentions were honorable -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:05:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Susan -:- I agree Postie -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:53:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ michael donner -:- naming can be tricky -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 03:54:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ MARK -:- naming can be tricky -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:30:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard / Postie -:- Mark, he did tell it further up ..... -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 05:18:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Bravo Mark! Well said (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:23:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ Susan -:- Awesome Mark Bravo Kudos I echo -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:21:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Hey Mark -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:07:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- Enshrine this Post! ***good work****!!! n/t -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:47:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- I will!! (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:06:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- ***EXCELLENT POST EVERYONE*** -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:23:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- ***EXCELLENT POST EVERYONE*** -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:56:32 (GMT)

__ Aussi Ji -:- Welcome aboard,from downunder.cheers mate. nt -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 10:55:53 (GMT)

__ __ Tony Ji -:- Welcome aboard,from downunder.cheers mate. nt -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 11:37:21 (GMT)

__ Dermot -:- First post -- best wishes -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 10:31:52 (GMT)

__ Robyn -:- First post -- best wishes -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 10:16:51 (GMT)

__ Pat Conlon -:- First post -- best wishes to you Guy -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 08:45:07 (GMT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Pat, thanks for what you said about aliases... -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 15:56:31 (GMT)

__ __ michel donner -:- First post -- best wishes to you Guy -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 15:14:14 (GMT)

Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 07:07:40 (GMT)
From: Guy Rollins
Email: guy@architx.com
To: Everyone
Subject: First post -- best wishes
Message:

I've been aware that there was an ex-premie forum for some time, but when I initially checked it out I did not recognize any names (because everyone was disguised) and it felt negative -- so I forgot about it.

Recently Donner forwarded the link to Dettmer's posts, I read them and was impressed by the content and the transformation that MVD has undergone. The Dettmers I had known in the past was very private about the events around his life. Also, what he has to say about past events matches what I witnessed.

So, this is intended to say hello to friends (now that I recognize a few names) and to wish you all well. I would welcome hearing from old friends.

Guy

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:19:30 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling (Baier)
Email: None
To: Guy Rollins
Subject: First post -- best wishes
Message:

Hey Guy!!

Welcome to the Forum. Remember your ex-roomie from Morton Towers?

I'm really, really happy to hear from you! I've wondered about you many times over the years. I particularly remember that John and I wanted to get a special chair for MJ for the apartment so that he could sit there if he visited us, and you were very clear that that wasn't gonna happen. I remember thinking, 'He has a different take on MJ than us, for sure!'

Look forward to hearing your 'take' if you want to tell us, and it's good to know you're alive and well.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:08:30 (GMT)
From: Alan Fenstermacher
Email: alan@woodcon.com
To: Guy Rollins
Subject: First post -- best wishes
Message:

Welcome aboard Guy. Long time no see.
Alan

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:42:52 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Guy Rollins
Subject: There's a Few from IHQ Here
Message:

Hi Guy. I didn't know you personally, but I'm the Joy who was in the IHQ typesetting room after Janice. Was there for a number of years (but thankfully out of the cult for almost 20 now).

Even though there's lots of negativity here (very healthy place to process anger!) there's also quite a few really thoughtful and insightful discussions. It's just amazing the things people come up with, and all the revelations by closer-in folks like you and the Michael's really help put the pieces of the puzzle together.

Thanks for posting and welcome to Forum 5, hope to hear lots from you.

Love,
Joy (Jaber)

P.S. Hi to Michael Donner, too. Thanks for showing up as well. I didn't know you personally, but still have fond memories of you from the IHQ days.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 16:34:20 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Guy Rollins
Subject: Hello Guy
Message:

You probably don't remember me, my name is Joe Whalen, and I didn't know you, just saw you working at DECA a few times, and I had some interraction with you when I worked in the legal department at DECA in 1979 and when I was CC in Miami in 79-80. Welcome.

Regarding anonymity, I know it can be off-putting, but it seems that after awhile, people who were anonymous eventually reveal their identities. I really support that, although I think it should be remembered that the Maharaji cult was and is largely built on fear, and people have their own ways of dealing with that.

Of course, it's just like finding out that Maharaji and his cult are subject to the emperor's new clothes phenomenon. Once you get past that, there isn't any fear anymore. That's why it feels so good to go public about all this.

Welcome, and thanks for being here.

Joe Whalen

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 16:02:21 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Guy Rollins
Subject: welcome Guy
Message:

I look forward to hearing what you have to say.

Susan

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 15:50:41 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: sylviecyn@yahoo.com
To: Guy Rollins
Subject: Hey Guy, How are you? Remember me?
Message:

Dear Guy,

When I saw your name here I jumped in my seat! I worked for you in the design room, I used to go by the name Cindy, and my last name was Folcik.

Those were weird days, eh? I live in Vermont now, and we're up to our waists (literally) in snow.

I so happy to see you posting here. I hope you are well, and by your email, it looks like your still an architect.

Warmest regards, Guy, WOW!

Cynthia Gracie

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 12:59:01 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Guy Rollins
Subject: Welcome Guy
Message:

Thanks for checking-in and for your kind words. Thanks also for bearing witnessing to what I have reported. The more people who were around Maharaji come forward and honestly report or confirm what went on around him, the more difficult it will be for current and potential PWK's to pretend that his greed, his lust, his alcoholism, his hypocricy and his indifference to the concerns of others have nothing to do with who he is or what he claims his mission to be.

All the best,

Michael

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:03:32 (GMT)
From: Mark Appleman
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Welcome to All the Presidents Men
Message:

This is great. Its like the Nixon Watergate thing in some way. Halderman, Dean, Kissinger . With the 2 MD's, and now Mr Rollins , who I seem to remember as the Architect ( with a sweet wife or ex-wife Janice), its sort of like All the President's Men coming out of the closet . . . one by one. Courage , even when long overdue, is to be applauded. The sooner the better. There are still quite a few people 'At the Feet of the Master' . The Master who never was. I just ran into 2 terminal old-timers at a club in LA last nite. There but for the Grace of God go I !!! There STILL are people in that burning building . . .

Along with the litany of mortal sins Mike Dettmers was laying out above, it triggered a hope that Mike Donners might add 'the Joint at the IHQ meeting' story to the FORUM historical record. Told to me back in the 70's by Lou Schwartz, I just laughed and laughed. Anyway, Maharaji seemed at least to be quite democratic as far as his substance abuse choices, (if not his smoking behavior). Hash with Ron Coletta, a joint with John Hampton ('Remember,only with ME !' 'Yes Maharaji !' ), acid with the other John, as well as a toke with the Lads down at the Denver IHQ Office. A lot of the premies I used to hang out with - One Foundation camp,other musicians , 'Bongos', Cosmoburgers, and other non-IHQ types, were more from the dope than alcohol side of things, so these stories were spiritual currency to them.

Somehow , I think what happens is this. You hear or witness some particular pecadillo of your Idol/Star/Guru , something you find detestible or wrong or innappropriate, but its isolated,and more important you're isolated ( and certainly in a fear-based system with an ALL Knowing & Powerful master ) so you just bury it, ignore it, sluff it off somehow,or try and correct it within the scope of your life (something it seems, from their accounts at least, both Mike Donners and Dettmers did). As all of US had given our ALL ( 'for in you it will mellow, Maharaji my Lord, my life is your play' ) the 'discrete' evidences that each one of us got that all was not well in Denmark or Brindiban unfortunately becomes 'discreet',or worse yet, 'Darshan stories' . We all took too long to connect the dots and come forward. Jeff Wilson the Gardener and his tales of Rawat Family dysfunction. Teddy T. with his version of the Santa Barbara intervention.The lineage controversies. All those stories of Shri Hans Rawat having a little young travelling Indian sqeeze along with him on his road trips as well.

But my tendency was to look at what was wrong or incomplete with the person telling me the story's understanding of Maharaji - rather than looking at the total implausibility of Maharaji himself ! Or feel that one should minds one's own spiritual business. Or not rat(rawat)out a good friend- he gave me Liberation,didn't he? . Or fear period, the wrath of THE PERFECT ONE. Or genuinely, like some loyal political flack, put a spin on the event, and allow it to attest to Maharaji's ( 'he's so free', or 'he has no concepts',or 'he did it just for me !So Much Love )

You know what I'm saying. You've done it. We all did it. I certainly chuckle imagining Jim Heller giving his version of devotional satsang.It IS funny to look back. Til you remember his friend who did himself in. And Cynthia Korman. And poor Mirabai. And Susan and her struggle regarding Jagdeo. And the people I met at the club last nite . Or Sandy, the girl who came to the New York Shri Hans Clinic in '73 having followed satsang saying literally saying if your eyes deceive you,pluck them out (and John Horton, god bless him - stilll to this day my family Doctor- sincerely telling her that Maharaji's lilas are endless and everything would work out)

I watched Maharaji and Raja's sexual advance on Cynthia Korman end up driving her literally mad, and this was long before Maharaji's 'I am Krishna period (of the 80's), so I get all the girls' (So FORGET the thesis that Marolyn's fooling around caused Maharaji to wander) They both just waded in and played around with the head and body of this statuesque supermodel type (one of the few brunettes on record). She was very conflicted by their bizarre behavior, later being considered a bongo and finally being institutionalized ( not exactly LIBERATION, is it ?). I know because she came to me, along with others, for help. This was '77 ( yes only 2 years after those dewy Malibu Beachfront 'Walking with Durga Ji,our MOM', and during those Hansi-Wadi Babies at home videos. )

I was also around for Maharaji getting astrological counseling from Koran during that 80's period, who literally nursed him though the conflict he was having in his marriage from a lot of sexual experimentation that they were BOTH going through(this has been previously alluded to in this FORUM). This was in addition to the Doctor of the Stars thing . How could he be severely bummed and anguishedin his private life, and still give such powerful satsang. He thought it was a Miracle! ( he obviously never saw that it was the ability of an entertainer athlete or musician to Perform . Good for him. Too bad for all of us. )

Also when Maharaji had less than PERFECT relationships with Michelle Mitchell, Gwen Harrington,Carol Eannace,and Grace Maas, among others. Not to mention the oft cited Monica Lewis

Its funny. Because each thing in itself is just one thing, and to see the pattern and call a spade a spade at that point was not even possible.

But as the President's Men make their appearance here, and the missing 17 minutes of tape get played to us again and again, (through still another person's perspective) I am quite pleased. Things are as they should be. Bill, Jim, Joe (our Woodward and Bernsteins) et al, who have been howling in the wilderness for years for reliable Public Personna Smoking Guns, are having their desire for unimpeachable witnesses fulfilled. And the nobility of their intention is displayed for all.And we can impeach our pasts with surety and finality.

so hopefully the Information can Liberate You, the reader, from the Holographic Liberation ( 'but Mark it all seemed SO real!)
that never occured . . . 'I am not a crook!'

oh well,time for work.

 

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:45:09 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Mark Appleman
Subject: My name included was a typo?:)
Message:

I surely howled here at the forum, although Her Majesty's subjects might say more accurately that I was 'barking'.

A forum historian might put my name closer Sanfords rather than
Jim or Joe's when an accounting of the struggle here is done!

While I did clamor for PAM confirmations of reality, and REALLY 'appreciating' JM's super impressive work here and his being the first real upper dust devotee to step forward with integrity and
work to help us out, most of my posts for a long time were
more primal scream therapy than contributions to the cause.

A thanks and a tip of the hat to And it is Divine for that
primal scream issue!

A short listing of rebel heavyweights of the forum really cant include my name. But thanks for the mention!

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:25:18 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Mark Appleman
Subject: Welcome to All the Presidents Men:Mark, a few ?'s.
Message:

Mark-

You touched on a number of stories, ranging from 4 or 5 women who were used in some way by m,Jeff Wilson the gardener(I knew Jeff a bit), the drug stories, the counselors, the model, etc.

Can you elaborate on some of these, so that we can put them in either the 'rumor' category, or the 'fact, as seen by someone' category?

They are intriguing to say the least, and many of us would like to know if they are valid or not.
The puzzle seems to be shaping up in ways I never would have imagined.

Thanks for posting,
La-ex

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 13:19:46 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Welcome to All the Presidents Men:Mark, a few ?'s.
Message:

email me at apple4256@datastreet.com with your name and # and we can have a chat or lunch that will amaze you. However,I will simply say all were first or second hand 'darshan stories' counseling things,or conversations with the people cited.

To me , there's only one fact worth ascertaining.
Do we deserve our power back , given long ago under false pretenses ?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:19:23 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Thanks Mark, I will.We've spoken before...nt
Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:47:43 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Mark Appleman
Subject: Ha ! Funny , informative ..really INTERESTING nt
Message:

zzzz

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:39:12 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Mark Appleman
Subject: Bravo Mark.... except one question FA
Message:

A tour de force Mark, two thumbs way up.

But FA, I understand I have less than complete moral authority by posting anonymously, but I think it's not cool to have people outed here. The details are intriguing and damning to M but doesn't it make those people named victims all over again?

Postie

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 19:37:45 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Bravo Mark.... except one question FA
Message:

Not outing I don't think. Many of the things I refered to I have mentioned piecemeal on the Forum over the years, or shared openly or had shared openly to me. Jeff Wilson told his story to anyone who would listen. ( Joe last I heard he was in Ireland, but his specifiics on situations not firsthand are not mine to tell. Maybe still in the Rawat loop, tho I don't know.)

So Postie, my question back is ,'If you know you are one of 50 people getting Mike Donner's letter, are you ethically kosher putting that on the Internet. Is it public domain , especially if it might help one made an INFORMED decision ?

At least 50 people know about each specific thing I'm mentioning.
The many things I don't mention I STILL think are personal. I did not mention any current card carrying members.The women were the dissillusioned flee-ers in my Journey. Koran has passed away and Cynthia was raped and destroyed by Rawat. I have no compunction telling her tale. The intention here was the global, not the specific. What Jim would call commentary.

Postie, your question might be a concern about YOU being outed before you're ready . At least that's a guess,or something worth looking at.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 23:14:36 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: notinherent@yahoo.com
To: Mark
Subject: Koran ... Caron ??
Message:

Do you mean Mme. Caron Ladinsky? She was a palm reader but also owned an import/export store with her husband, I believe his name was Don? Their store was in Chatsworth or one of those LA suburbs. He hubby used to go to Afghanistan a good part of the year. I used to see him hubby years ago when I lived in the Haight Ashbury, because he was friends with Pablo (an ex-prem who was the unofficial mayor of the Haight at one point) but if it is my old pal Caron, can you tell me more?

If it it too personal, just send me an e-mail -- thanks

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:46:20 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Caron was one of my good friends, too! (nt
Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:58:07 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: post@rmi.net
To: Mark
Subject: Mark.... about naming names
Message:

Mark said: 'Postie, your question might be a concern about YOU being outed before you're ready . At least that's a guess,or something worth looking at.'

Thank you Doctor Mark - good guess. I do look at it and I do consider the credibility gap, personal integrity, honesty, etc that comes with posting anonymously, but it's my choice. And it is forum policy that it is my choice to either be anonymous or not.

As far as the people you have listed here, read Susan's reply below. She has stated here before that she was a victim of Jagdeo but she is the one who came here to say that as is her right. She agrees that it puts undue stress on someone who was / is a victim of M. Her honesty and her thwarted attempt at communicating her issue to M via Michael Dettmers, prompted me to begin posting here several months back and others as well. But she chose when and how to tell her story. There are many fence sitters lurking here who will be shocked at your allegations so there is a lot of value in that, but naming the victims also harms the victims.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 19:54:57 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Mark, I agree
Message:

I think there is a lot of crap that is 'common knowledge' among a lot of premies that just doesn't get stated, or remains in the realm of gossip among premies over cups of coffee, or maybe stronger stuff. I think what you are saying is very valuable, because it lifts these things out of that realm, and is very helpful. I'm glad that at least those women had the sense to 'flee' that awful situation.

'Naming names,' as long as it isn't personally destructive, which I trust you to know about in this particular case, is just so valuable, because it puts a face and a name onto the abuse Maharaji dumped on people. That's what is so valuable about this forum, because it's partly real people talking about what really happened to them.

A lot of people knew Gwen, Carol and Grace. A lot more, like me, knew them by name and face, but didn't know them personally, or perhaps just to say hello to. They are real people to many, and that takes Maharaji's trangressions out of the abstract and into the real world. So I think what you said was completely appropriate and I hope more people will do the same.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:33:29 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: But I might not
Message:

I am not saying Maharaji had sex with these women.I wasn't there in the hotel hooms or dates. But I did observe that things were done to alienate them from dealing with M in the same way. The relationship was Enhanced beyond the traditional master thing, and after that the center just didn't hold in the same way. Sort of the Humpty Dumpty all the Kings Horses thing.

I was not Maharaji's pimp or astrologer personally. But the record should clearly state that he did have such people.And X rated party people. And a whole well developed and well stocked shadow life.

If this clarity can fast forward someone into regaining their own personal Power (Including Maharaji, who needs to reclaim HIS personal power, NOT vampirize unwitting and uninformed De- Vote -ees.)Great. Or if seeing the names and stories of Mike Finch,Mike Dettmers,and Mike Donner- who have so to speak,been stepping up to the MIKE - wakes someone up, Great !

That's the goal-again and still-ironically enough. Liberation.
Just emotional-mental body liberation this time.Turns out that OUR spiritual bodies are doing just fine, thank you very much !

I'm just describing his drug of choice with some of those specific X ers,who I assure you will not be swayed by me. They know what I write, and much much more. They have just tucked it all into either their belief or self worth systems, and resumed Life with the Master. And that's fine to me. Free choice is free choice. But the Truth (to purloin a phrase) CAN set one free.

And some strange consulting I did with Koran, and counseling with Cynthia. So they were direct sources.And in their own way,no longer with us.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:48:34 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Well, then let's be clear here
Message:

Clearly the sexual relationship or the attempted relationship with those women is what was implied, or at least that is the way it's being taken, so maybe it would be helpful for you just to tell the story as you know it, rather than the rather oblique references we are getting. What are you actually saying? What do you mean the relationships were 'ehanced' and why don't you just tell us what you think was going on. How were they 'alientated' and why did they 'flee?'

I guess I see it like this. Truth and information are valuable and extremely liberating, because you have to DO something with facts and information, you can't just discount it completely, especially if it comes from somebody who was in a position to know the truth. Everything else is just somebody's analysis or opinion and maybe it's helpful and maybe it isn't. Certainly opinion and analysis can be discounted as just that. But facts and events and testimony are something else. They are liberating to people.

Personally, I don't think you or Michael Dettmers, or Michael Donner, or me or anyone else has any better insights into all this. What people like about the Michaels and what they have to say, is that they have information about what actually happened, that was hidden from the vast majority of premies, and they are talking about it. And they were in a position to know. They also have their opinions about it, just like we all do.

So, what gets people exercised about your post is that it appears to contain information that we didn't already have. Like you said, the truth can set you free, but I think we need to be careful about stating what the truth is.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:05:34 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Mark, I agree - your intentions were honorable
Message:

Thank you for you wonderful post. The only ''outing'' I draw the line at is in trying to place blame on premies or current Pewkies because they are all victims of the same rapist no matter what they did. They did it in his name and need to be forgiven for that.

The BIG LIE started with Rawat and we all got caught up in that lie. Now let the truth set us free. All the truth and nothing but the truth and only the truth, so help me God.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:53:47 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: I agree Postie
Message:

That post is very powerful but I too was struck that the names of the women that Rawat had sex with was not neccessary for it to be powerful. I guess in journalism there is a code about not naming rape victims. I wonder if we should as a group discuss a 'code' on this. In my view, women who had sex with Rawat thinking he was the Lord of the Universe were victims of a type of sexual assault and spiritual abuse. I do think that naming them could make any guilt, pain, or shame they carry worse, and make them feel powerless.

I think it should be up to them whether their names appear on the forum.

I hope some of them do post though, telling the truth is powerfully healing.

Mark, I thought your post was a best ever but what do you think, should you perhaps ask to have the names balcked out?

Anyone else want to weigh in on the pros and cons here?

I would like to read what Cynthia thinks.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 03:54:35 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: naming can be tricky
Message:

hi, i agree with you susan. naming is troubling to me. when i was reading this site before i began to post, i went thru the archives and there were numerous references to me over the months and most of them not true, some partially true and very few that were true. and often the posts that followed the not true info seemed to further distort the truth...facts. also, it did not make me feel good. and most often it seemed like the poster was speaking with first hand knowledge or implying knowledge they obviously did not have.

when reading further as mark clarified, it becomes more clear but there was movement to enshrine the original post on another site without (i presume) the clarifying statements (which are still not clear to me actually).

so i join you, susan, in calling for discretion at minimum and more conversation of standards....not to censor certainly but to assure first hand experience please.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:30:04 (GMT)
From: MARK
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: naming can be tricky
Message:

Mike ,

Does this indicate a willingness to tell a first person joint at IHQ story.Just for the captain's log,mind you. It would be the first non achohol first person substance abuse postings.

Believe it or not, it was the inspiration of my first post

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 05:18:43 (GMT)
From: Richard / Postie
Email: None
To: MARK
Subject: Mark, he did tell it further up .....
Message:

... at the bottom of the 'Jim -:- 'MIKE DONNER' IS A PREMIE PLANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!' thread.

And you still haven't adressed my concerns about naming names reinforced by Susan's personal story.

I still think you are a freakin' talented chronicler of the true Life With Knowledge.

Richard

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:23:31 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Mark Appleman
Subject: Bravo Mark! Well said (nt)
Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:21:50 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Mark Appleman
Subject: Awesome Mark Bravo Kudos I echo
Message:

enshrine this post as a BEST EVER!!!!

thanks Mark!

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:07:03 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Mark Appleman
Subject: Hey Mark
Message:

Lots of good information in there. Well done.

I was wondering about Jeff Wilson, who I recall from COLL as a nice guy. I know he was Maharaji's gardener for awhile; what in particular did he have to say? What is his situation regarding Maharaji now?

Frankly, I would have been shocked when I lived in the ashram that Maharaji drank and took drugs, but I can see why that wouldn't be such a big deal to many other premies at the time, or now. Also, I'm not so sure I wouldn't have considered it lila and just tried to surrender.

But I think the news about having sex outside his marriage, with premies, would have, and probably does, have the shock value to really get people to start thinking more objectively about Maharaji. And it all unravels from there. So, now you are naming names. I had heard rumors about Gwen, Grace and Carol, and maybe others too, but I knew who those three were, so maybe that's why I remembered. Do you know how they have dealt with all that? I can't imagine it was easy.

And I think the fact that a premie may have been psychologically damaged by a sexual encounter with Maharaji, or the way they were treated, is also very significant, and would open the eyes of a lot of people. So thanks for that, too.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:47:18 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Mark Appleman
Subject: Enshrine this Post! ***good work****!!! n/t
Message:

raw raw raw

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:06:58 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I will!! (nt)
Message:

ddd

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:23:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mark Appleman
Subject: ***EXCELLENT POST EVERYONE***
Message:

Mark,

You just said a lot. Some important facts alone, forget about the excellent commentary. Acid? I would have loved to be there for that one. Can you imagine? Acid?? Acid and jamming and laughing on the top of Anacapa, going for a midnight, moon-filled walk. Maybe getting a little bit of that midnight arti shit happening .....

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:56:32 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: ***EXCELLENT POST EVERYONE***
Message:

hahaha yeah. What a trip that would have been. Shithot, as we used to say in the ole acid days over here. HA!!

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 10:55:53 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Guy Rollins
Subject: Welcome aboard,from downunder.cheers mate. nt
Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 11:37:21 (GMT)
From: Tony Ji
Email: None
To: Guy
Subject: Welcome aboard,from downunder.cheers mate. nt
Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 10:31:52 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Guy Rollins
Subject: First post -- best wishes
Message:

Hi guy ive been aware of the forum for a while too and just recently started posting under my real name after 3 0r 4 posts under an alias.

As for the negativity ....I think it comes and goes ....you know ...the rough with the smooth sort of thing.

A few things I've noticed.. .....it's interesting, funny, thought-provoking, at times really irritating(!), confronting, consoling, gossipy, serious, ...... in short ....a forum of ex-premies.

From one newbie to another.....welcome.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 10:16:51 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Guy Rollins
Subject: First post -- best wishes
Message:

Welcome Guy,
I hope you find friends here and reconnect but also that you find support and less negativity then you did when you checked out the forum in the past. Seems to be LOTS of very recent exes and that they are nuturing each other from what I've read anyway.
Love,
Robyn

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 08:45:07 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Guy Rollins
Subject: First post -- best wishes to you Guy
Message:

You said: ''I've been aware that there was an ex-premie forum for some time, but when I initially checked it out I did not recognize any names (because everyone was disguised) and it felt negative -- so I forgot about it.''

Thank you for saying that. It is my firm conviction that this forum will become more positive and more respected the more people rid themselves of fear and are unafraid of stepping forward and identifying themselves.

Not all of us played significant roles in the cult but I feel that, by declaring who we are, we may help those who may have known us in the past. Like you, I hope one day to meet some long-time friends here.

That is the reason that I do not choose to use an alias. Just as your friends from the past will know who you are and will respect and trust you, I hope so will mine. I hope you meet your friends here.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 15:56:31 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Pat, thanks for what you said about aliases...
Message:

Hi Pat,

I just wanted to thank you for all that you've done/said to help folks here feel more comfortable about revealing their names.

I've never had a problem with it myself. And I know why some can't reveal themselves, but in general, this forum is starting to become much more credible and civil. Putting our real names are on the line does make a difference.

Love to you,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 15:14:14 (GMT)
From: michel donner
Email: None
To: guy rollins
Subject: First post -- best wishes to you Guy
Message:

hi guy...we know each other well but a public hello and thanks for posting. as m's long time archetet you will be able to share a unique perspective on his activities and manner of being. i know that being around him was not always easy. and of course, dido the alias thing mentioned above (below?) by pat conlon.

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