Michele Deradune -:- About my posting here -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 20:36:05 (GMT)

__ Deborah -:- You're not responding, Michelle? -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 20:27:08 (GMT)

__ bill -:- Is this your poem from enhoyinglife? -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:42:39 (GMT)

__ __ bill....a post from Nigel -:- The illusion of surrendered control -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:49:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ bill -:- Another Nigel post for Michele -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 03:15:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ bill -:- yet Another Nigel post for Michele -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 03:38:12 (GMT)

__ swami suchabanana -:- WAKE UP, premies!! Master/slave-ry is Dead!!! -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:50:19 (GMT)

__ __ Gary Epton -:- swami-ji, many thanks for saying it oh so well (nt -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 02:51:16 (GMT)

__ __ bill -:- nice work suchanewdawn!...nt -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 21:19:06 (GMT)

__ __ Ian Dury -:- Swami***A BEST OF FORUM***post -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:34:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ la-ex -:- Swami***A BEST OF FORUM***I agree nt -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:58:10 (GMT)

__ __ Deborah -:- Take good notes Michelle-- -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:20:50 (GMT)

__ PatC -:- Michele, as someone who has began to go sour on EV -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:21:23 (GMT)

__ Bryn -:- Its all so exciting isn't it? -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:13:12 (GMT)

__ JHB -:- What your friend said -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:20:19 (GMT)

__ __ silvia -:- genius NT -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:26:21 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- What's the point????????? -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:03:13 (GMT)

__ __ Dermot -:- Well put Francesca...spot on (nt) -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:38:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ Salam -:- You have a point Francesca -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 12:36:52 (GMT)

__ la-ex -:- my recent post under Lesley below is sincere nt -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:00:11 (GMT)

__ Deborah -:- Continued -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 22:40:26 (GMT)

__ __ Mark Appleman -:- Continued -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 03:02:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ Richard Wallace -:- Hey Mark! -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:36:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ Silvia -:- question -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 04:49:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- Oh Mark---I'm really hurting -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 03:29:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Deborah, you're right - it hurts a LOT! -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:36:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- been there,done it. Good News:It gets a Lot Better -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 09:44:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ silvia -:- Oh Mark---I'm really hurting -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 05:16:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- I hope Mark posts his email coz you do need a pal -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 03:41:54 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Michele -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 22:23:51 (GMT)

__ Deborah -:- This is real sick stuff, Sister :( -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 22:01:07 (GMT)

__ __ creativejani -:- I think it's quite simple - you are enjoying the . -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:46:12 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- My comment on this -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:52:54 (GMT)

__ __ CD -:- on this day -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:05:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Happy birthday to you Chris and also -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:49:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ CD -:- Thanks -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:08:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- You're a breath of fresh air, Sir Dave -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:52:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Oh, Birthday Goddess. Happy birthday, Chris -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:33:18 (GMT)

__ Bin Liner -:- Have you read the website ? if so what do you -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:50:32 (GMT)

__ Way -:- You are unique -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:41:01 (GMT)

__ Silvia -:- The US against THEM syndrome- Premie TALK -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:31:52 (GMT)

__ __ Scot Jamieson -:- The Us versus Them scene works both ways. -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:16:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Very nicely said, Scot J .......................NT -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:26:26 (GMT)

Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 20:36:05 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: About my posting here
Message:

Hi,

I just wanted to share with you all that it's been kind of intense for me posting here under my real name and all while also being a lover of Maharaji and Smart Card-carrying active premie. I wrote to a longtime premie friend this morning and told her about it, asking her please not to bother to write me back if she was only going to lecture me that I shouldn't post on ex-premie.org, because I really didn't need or care to hear it. I have not asked her permission to reprint her letter here, so I am printing it anonymously but will say that she is an active premie who has been a follower of Maharaji since about 1973 or '74:

'Hi Shell,

'Well, if anyone does anything from their heart,
i don't think that is weird.
it is wonderful, as a matter of fact.
Maharaji has again & again suggested that we be
real. that we come from the inside so strongly,
that we don't care what people think.
because we're lucky enough to get
love and positive reinforcement from within.
now how many people on the planet can
say THAT! that is a rare treasure indeed.
as long as we're coming from that love, we're
protected. very much so. Maharaji doesn't want us to be all homogenized and so afraid of public opinion
that we feel reticent to express ourselves.
Remember amaroo 4, when he talked about the wild
horses? Sit & listen to that segment over & over
again. You'll feel so good, you'll start to giggle.'

Another premie, who received Knowledge in the '90s, sent me this e-mail this morning:

'Hi Michele!
Sometimes it takes courage to be yourself. But we're so much happier when we
are true to our true nature. =)
Love you,'

I have a sister who is has been enjoying listening to the videos of Maharaji that I have been sending her for the past few years, and soon I will invite her to visit this website. She is biologically my half-sister and 17 years younger than me, so she was only something like 2 thru 5 years old when I lived in the ashram and we did not really get to know each other until adulthood, especially since we have almost always lived over 1,000 miles apart -- so she doesn't know much about the colorful background of Maharaji's mission in the U.S. I'll be calling her soon and inviting her to visit here. It might be very interesting to see what she thinks about all this.

Cheers

Michele (not an ex)

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 20:27:08 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: You're not responding, Michelle?
Message:

I'm waiting for you to address any of the questions and statements regarding your post. You are conspicuously silent.

Could it be that the EV boogy man has your tongue? Or your fingers? Can you not find the Maharaji rhetoric in your repetoire to handle the objections that were raised. You said in a recent posting that you're Bold, blah...blah...Why not prove it?

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:42:39 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Is this your poem from enhoyinglife?
Message:

Michele Deradune
Austin, TX, USA

Wanting to fall in love

I ask myself:
can I have the courage?
the courage to reflect
my own true inner nature?
to play my role to the hilt
to love and laugh and cry
like I know
like I know
the flame within
which can never die

Flirting, courting, wanting to fall in love,
in love with life.
life.
itself.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:49:40 (GMT)
From: bill....a post from Nigel
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: The illusion of surrendered control
Message:

...Remember the oft-repeated message: 'Surrender to that Grace' - usually combined with 'Just make that effort..!' I don't think it is an exaggeration to say that every one of the Living Perfect Fraudster's satsangs from the super-devotional, late seventies period included both injunctions repeated often in various forms of words. You make the effort; the Guru supplies the experience. Take one step towards Guru Maharaj Ji, and Guru Maharaj Ji will take a hundred steps in your direction... This was (is?) the central, absurd paradoxical law of the cult: you do the work, the guru delivers the goods and gets the credit. If the goods fail to appear, it is your fault for not doing enough work (and the guru's conscience is as clean as new shirt on Sunday).

Maharaji's kind of meditation is an illusion of surrendered control. Not in the sense that your experience is illusory, but in the sense of your being transported somewhere - Maharaji's World probably - by an external power. (Ok, the 'Knowledge' experience is said to be 'internal', but what I mean here is external to your control). This is precisely analogous to the susceptible hypnotic subject who does for him- or herself everything necessary to achieve the sensation of automatism, then attributes the experience to the power of the hypnotist...

As a premie - and long before you may even become a premie - you have learned off by heart that (a) you must focus on the techniques, and (b) the experience is not elicited by those techniques, but is a gift of Grace.

But at a more damaging level, the illusion of surrendered control occurs in all areas of cult involvement, as well as everyday life. You can't afford the fare to travel to a festival, so you take your remaining furniture to an auction. By His Grace, someone buys it just in time for you to purchase a ticket. (Wow, I mean, that is so amazing... I just took that one step and...Thank you, Lord...)

In most cases, the illusion of surrendered control occurs in situations where we have limited control of our nervous systems. We cannot, for example, make ourselves hiccup or belch but we can engineer circumstances to improve the probability of those events happening (by, say, opening a few bottles of the aforementioned special vintage...) Similarly, practicing the Knowledge techniques does not guarantee that we will see light, hear music etc., but increases the likelihood of their occurring. We are easily persuaded that experiences beyond our obvious control are not of our own making.

[My late brother Peter had a party trick as a teenager. He would ingest three teaspoons of bicarbonate of soda. The alkali reacted with the hydrochloric acid in his stomach to produce a surfeit of carbon dioxide. He would then exhale said gas in a machine-gun volley of belches. Better still, he could talk in belches, sounding like Kermit, or that actor Jack whatsisname after the voice-box implant. Fixty-six syllables was his record. Set to music this would give you one full verse of 'Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord' (plus 'Glory, glory, halle...')

Peter never saw the glory of the coming of the Lord - though I tried my best. The last time I spoke to him in a hospital ward with family gathered around the bed, I slipped some useful satsang into the conversation. It seemed important at the time. Having a premie in the family confers a blessing for five generations in either direction - didn't you know? Thought it might help Peter on his way to understand that a living, perfect, alcoholic, mutlimillionaire cult leader in Malibu was the main reason he had walked the planet for twenty-two years...]

Back to the illusion of surrendered control... Can we test the theory? There are certainly testable hypotheses here: we might expect premies to be more susceptible to the illusion than non-premies. Thus, premies will be more susceptible to both the new-age pendulum and ouija board effects, as well as being more likely to report loss of volition during hypnosis than non-premies.

The trouble is, I need some research volunteers, but am only acquainted with non-premies nowadays. Perhaps URL or Mel would like to step forward...

Or should I advertise for particpants on the ELK site?

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 03:15:51 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill....a post from Nigel
Subject: Another Nigel post for Michele
Message:

Hi Michelle, here is a post from the past from Nigel,
It might be helpful or interesting.

'Perhaps it is my hyperactive imagination again - that strange and sometimes dangerous phenomenon of our mental lives that we are all prone to which would have me, for example, imagine a premie might admit to making unwarranted accusations and even express some regret; to imagine that a premie might, just for once, see through his Master's wisdom and recognise an accomplished story-teller with an impoverished intellect and crippled moral judgement pulling the strings; a premie who might yet admit that his Master has made unsustainable promises, indefensible claims and - let's face it - pretty stupid remarks during his earthly stint as the all-powerful one.

That same imagination which once convinced me a child guru from an obscure bhak-ti-basics cult in the foothills of god-chose-where had arrived on planet earth to shatter the bonds of my mortality and deliver me to light everlasting. The imagination which informed me that, however cultlike it appeared to outsiders, Divine Light Mission was the means by which the Living Lord would bring Knowledge to mankind and thereby 'peace on earth in [his] lifetime'.

The imagination which assured me all love was Maharaji's gift and the pain of this world but a consequence of my failure to be centred, and remain centred at all times; that to feel good inside but an acknowledgement of his gift and become indebted: that I should 'weep for a thousand years' if I grasped for a moment what the Master, out of infinite love and boundless mercy, had done for little ol' shit-faced me.

The imagination which reframed his conspicuous striving for personal wealth as the humble acceptance of unsought gifts of love from his devotees.

The imagination which readily understood that science did not know the half it; that the power to pass on power can indeed be transmitted down a sacred lineage of (time?)lords - just like Dr Who...

The imagination which failed me when the rumour machine spoke of ill-temper, heavy drinking and drug abuse; and failed me again when Mishler provided corroboration.

The imagination which saw reason to savour the instructions of the Master's hand-picked mahatmas when they warned us sternly that non-premie friends were an influence to be avoided; that my mind was the enemy within; that loved ones must be given lower priority in my life than the constant practice of satsang, service and meditation.

The imagination which believed the Master could bring to any sphere of activity incomparable talent (even poetry); which accepted without question that he was a computer genuis; that saw ballet in a flat-foot's waddle.

The imagination that detected Maharaji's plan unfolding behind me in every detail of my life, whether a lost job, a failed romance or a gut-wrenching bereavement. These were his lila, his divine game, another beautiful chance to surrender and place my head at his lotus fucking feet for the rest of eternity.

I imagined Maharaji knew what he was talking about.

And that, my friends, is all it takes to make an idiot out of any one of us. You included

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 03:38:12 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: yet Another Nigel post for Michele
Message:

Premies:

Maharaji used to say demonstrably stupid things. This is a matter of public record. He made declarations about the nature of the universe (reincarnation, karma, evolution etc.); his powers (count 'em); broken promises (peace on earth, feeding the hungry, lions laying down with lambs, the whole world realizing Knowledge etc); statements about his closest associates (Holy Family and mahatmas being 'realised souls')... etc, etc.

I believe both Maharaji and his current followers would be embarrassed by such pronouncements if a friend, family member, journalist, or disinterested observer asked them right now to endorse or deny their validity. I politely suggested that his teachings of old were frequently - nay, routlinely - unreliable. I further suggested said guru was a liar, deluded, or an as-yet unfulfilled talent in the omnipotence biz. So why, I wondered, would anyone believe him now when the track record is crap..?

Your questions:

(1) Is it wise to follow a Master whose words cannot be trusted?
(2) How do you know Maharaji's present teachings can be trusted?
(3) At what point in time did his words become worthy of trust?
(4) How do you tell the difference between his reliable and unreliable statements?

New question:

(5) Do you even care?

If not, then:

(6) what does that say about you?

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:50:19 (GMT)
From: swami suchabanana
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: WAKE UP, premies!! Master/slave-ry is Dead!!!
Message:

Michele:

First, r.e. your posts:

In the real world, I teach and publish.

I advise students to do their own work, use their creativity, and credit their sources.

When you imitate someone, that could be flattery - if it's done in concert and with attribution or consent. But not as some purloined identity with a contrary thesis.

Entering and ripping-off is not 'flattery'; possible factors at play: opportunistic exploitation, covetousness, ego.

In the past I've been in professional situations where people intentionally plagiarized, paraphrased, republished without permission and otherwise patently infringed on my original and even copyrighted material. So, I retain attorneys.

From these and other professional experiences in government and public relations, I can distinguish the difference between what is well-intentioned and what is deceptive or belies an egocentric, aggressive agenda.

Where I come from, we don't steal bananas - or throw them at people. How cavalier, condescending, insensitive. But I guess that just goes to show - by his fruits shall ye judge him/her.

By the way, I read your gushy miragey op/ed testimonial in ELK and understand you used to transcribe and handle propaganda for miragey at IHQ in Denver. Ever heard about the drunken Perfect Master tape #1? 'Hey, senorita...' Wonder who has a copy of that one now?!

I'm very curious about the sections of m's talks that have been edited or deleted in transcriptions over the years. Like ol' Rosemary Woods with the typewriter and erase button in the Nixon White House.

You know, miragey likes to quote Kabir. But have you noticed that he NEVER refers to the sections of Kabir's work which state verbatim that a true saint or perfect master NEVER accepts money, gifts, or wealth from one's devotees?

When miragey did the vehicular manslaughter and then the hit-and-run, he also had an innocent premie servant falsely take the legal blame. That's another felony, in addition to the hit/run he committed.

Miragey committed another criminal felony, when miragey ordered Mike Donner to 'get Fakiranand out of the country' - to avoid the arrests and prosecution of Fakiranand + his accomplices in the attempted murder of Detroit reporter Pat Halley. m. was also protecting Rajaji, who had been instigating the mahatmas and WPC to avenge the pie-throwing incident. Do you know how many innocent people miragey + DLM top officials moved like pawns in the attempted homicide and aiding and abetting of fugitive criminals and the org coverup? Dozens of unsuspecting premies.

Did you know that Marolyn's husband miragey had Michael Dettmers procure young blonde premie women for his sexual pleasure, and then dumped them abruptly after he got it?

Did you know that the writings of Sarupanandji and other gurus does not indicate a legitimate descent of guruship to the materialist rawat clan - which is drowning in its own ill-gotten maya - but rather through a historical series of renunciants?

Did you know that people reported even back in the 1970s that miragey knew that Jagdeo was doing stuff with premie children at the Unity School in a closed room with the lights off? Have you seen the lies and spin doctoring by m's official representatives on the subject?

Did you know that while miragey was publicly accepting self-promotional civic awards and telling premies not to do drugs or drink alcohol, he was smoking cigs, imbibing cognac and smoking pot, too?

Did you know that the IRS was auditing Divine Light Mission, and that miragey had Dettmers and others create a new org and shell corporations which would allow miragey to divert and monopolize the donation revenues for himself and his extended family [e.g. Raja ji] without legal investigation or prosecution for tax fraud? Just in 1982 alone, more than $100 million was raised? Where did it all go to? 'It isn't easy to be rich. Once you have one million dollars, then you need two million...' etc. - miragey at Long Beach

How about m's and EVI's present claims that he never said he was god or a savior? Who is Guru Maharaj ji?
The 'authentic authorized story':
'Why do more than six million people around the world claim he is the greatest incarnation of God that ever trod the face of this planet? Why do Christian priests claim that he has taught them the way to love? Why do Hindus refer to him as the Swan Avatar?'
-- DLM/EVI, Bantam Books, 1973

'God is the same, but now we look for Him to come in a new way, to give His Knowledge. Jesus gave this Knowledge, Krishna gave this Knowledge, but now we must look again for a new Master to show us the light. I have not come to establish a new religion or sect, but I have come to give you Knowledge...' -- miragey

...'they expect God Himself to come, they pray for it, they ask for it, they announce about it, but when He comes they fail to recognize Him. And not recognizing Him is His physical form, they cannot recognize him within themselves.' -- miragey

...'whenever he comes to the physical world, the Perfect Master has to tolerate many difficulties.' - miragey

'We have to find this Word by a teacher, a guide. A guide who is perfect, and who can teach this perfect Knowledge to us. A perfect guide can guide us. You need a burning lamp to light other lamps. So, in the same way you need an enlightened Perfect Master to make you enlightened and perfect also. IF THE MASTER HIMSELF IS NOT PERFECT, HOW CAN HE MAKE YOU PERFECT? YOU NEED A PERFECT Master.' -miragey

'when Satguru comes... He is perfect, He was perfect, and He will be perfect... A devotee is sitting in America, Guru is sitting in India, but both have a very powerful connection...So, remember. We have to find that God, that person who is perfect... So, remember: we are part of Him who has manifested Himself as a Guru and who has come into this earth, and now we have to be One with Him. We have to completely merge and make our souls one with Him because He is perfect, and once we merge with Him we will also be perfect.' - miragey [aka maharaji aka guru maharaj ji], 15 years old, 1973 Shri Hans Productions

Either these words were and are all true, or you-know-who was and is a lying sack of you-know-what. [the EVI spin doctors, too!] Yes, I have seen big piles from elephants, but never has lil' swami seen such huge stinky piles of deluded demonic invention/reinvention! We must exorcise these personality cult demons that have been possessing the spirits, minds and bodies of our beloved brothers and sisters!

Who falsely fed the saviour, avatar, messiah, Krishna concepts? He and his family did - just look at the stupid costumes, crowns, the specially constructed stages, Krishna lila gopis' dance and the Lord Christ plays, Millenium, the thrones, the posing and the pictures, the official distorted guru worship rituals of bowing, arti, toe-kissing, etc. - all the real b.s. He personally authorized and approved all those concepts and rites - and he still feeds that elephant dung in piles to those brainwashed people who will eat it - because, frankly, it empowers dysfunctional him, miragey, in their enabling codependent lives, and disempowers them as independent, free-thinking human beings. We're talking practically terminally brainwashed r.e. some of the premie oldtimers.

Incidentally, did you know that countless people have regularly experienced brilliant inner light etc. way before and way after hearing about the maha - or never having heard about him? Did you know that some people here have experienced inner light, music, breath power, nectar way before ever receiving techs from m or his agents? I have experienced inner light since I was a child. That light has nothing to do with m. How to approach one's own light, sounds, breath, being are not the property of any self-styled guru, master, teacher. The secrecy he insists upon for these universal techniques and his related cult-enforced monopoly on speaking about the so-called knowledge only serve to empower him in a cult capacity and to extract tens of millions of dollars from his devotees for luxuries for his [and his family's] exclusive use.

The so-called knowledge comes with strings - so, it's not free - strings to miragey as the false master of one's fate and life. Tell anyone with a functioning brain that this isn't a personality cult or religion? Using the strings of false guru attachment, cult reinforcement and propaganda, Big Brother video scenarios, demonization of the human intellect, cult peer pressure and guilt trips, and inflated god-like claims and claims of some inner connection with him [which have since been spin doctored by m and EVI and denied], miragey's family have conned a lot of people into blindly and mindlessly following the various Rawat clan gurus.

Let's look at agya, for example:
Agya [the personal explicit direction/orders of the guru], and agya's use as a mind-numbing propaganda tool for brainwashing and total submission to m. as the absolute authority and superior power in this world, played a Huge role in breaking down the barriers of any sane person's sensibility, reasonable doubts, and aversion to even the most dastardly deeds ordered in the name of the almighty guru. Those who innocently come to knowledge and m. today are merely given a watered-down dose of agya -- yet reinforced weekly [but not daily and nightly] with the image of Big Brother hypnotizing them on a projection screen in a darkened screen in a cold and impersonal environment where he maintains absolute control of the situation.

Tens of thousands of adults, in what should have been the prime of their lives, actually submitted their innate intelligence and personal freedom and choices to the will of a pimply, greasy-haired teenaged Napoleon megalomaniac. This would not have been possible without a cumulative combination of synergistic factors: the orchestrated messianic 'Lord of the Universe' mindset which Prem Rawat and his minions routinely propagated and reinforced, as evidenced in m.'s countless satsangs [diatribes], Arti ritual [hymn of absolute adulation and submission], official media and publications, the enormous peer pressure and cult conformity, the cult commandments and rules, the bowing and prostation to his pictures and his person, the emotional and personal isolation many endured, the agonizing guilt trips, and the pretense that any effectiveness and experiences from the meditation techniques were somehow inextricably linked with him, etc.

However, this cosmology and transformation could not have been effectuated or complete without AGYA -- the guru's direct orders to the devotee[s]. Within the framework of the Rawat family's cult philosophy, the word of the Master literally becomes the final word, the ultimate worldly authority -- the powerful psychological device used in communication to relay and justify the various insatiable demands, habitual capriciousness, hypocrisy, inanity and insanity of any questionable m./organizational doctrines, operations, or shenanigans. Agya has also been ritually used as the measure and test of one's obedience, fitness, and devotion to the Master.

For instance, would Dettmers have done the deeds he performed - had it not been for m.'s direct agya? Perhaps not. [How about it, MD?] Similarly, when orders and demands were made of the premies, agya was routinely invoked by m. and relayed via m.'s mouthpieces throughout the premie hierarchy and pecking order of each community worldwide -- e.g. m. has stated that he needs a new plane, or m. says to forget about your jobs and families and that a true premie should only live to attend the festivals with one's Master, or we have been advised to tell you that it is preferable to leave cash or checks made out to m. in the darshan line [foot-kissing], or m. says you must [________fill in the blank] if you dare even call yourself his devotee...

When mahatma [instructor] Fakiranand [aka Mishra] and his companion went to bash in reporter Pat Halley's skull in August 1973 in a murder conspiracy of retribution [for publicly throwing a cream pie in m's face and thereby undermining a millenial 'Soul Rush' event at Cobo Hall in Detroit], do NOT think for a moment that it was some kind of a rogue operation [as the org's spin doctors concocted and quickly related to the shocked premies]. In fact, the hitmen themselves were under the distinct impression that they were simply following orders -- the will of the guru and his top-level organization. And, in fact, some very informed persons indicated and alleged at the time that the last telephone call between the hitmen and the DLM hierarchy before they left the Detroit ashram on their appointed rounds was with the young Rawat himself. Yes. Rawat himself. What did the honchos at DLM IHQ in Denver tell the hitmen to do? What did Rawat himself say, too? We already know that miragey ordered Mishler and Donner to direct the flight of the fugitives.

Why, then, did m. shortly thereafter pose in photos with Raja ji [in the And It Is Divine magazine] as the Godfather, and why was there the ritualized pie-throwing by m. at premie special events for several years thereafter? What Real Demons were actually being flaunted or exorcised? Why was DLM directly involved in the aiding and abetting of fugitives, an organizational cover-up and dissemination of lies, and subsequent $10,000 payoff to Halley to circumvent any official investigation, lawsuit, or criminal indictment? WHO was really being protected? 'No cheat, no deceit', remember?! 'Satsang' means company of truth; yet, where and when did m. and his org Ever share Any truth or light on this matter? Was this EVIL deed and pattern establishing a precedent for the subsequent criminal response and mishandling of m.'s hit-and-run vehicular manslaughter [and the hush money payoff] a decade later in India [as related to EPO by Dettmers]?

It is well-known that some WPC and security personnel around m. indicated they would Kill to protect m. -- or if ordered to - without question. Just like the KGB, CIA, or Mafia. What kind of spiritual racketeering has been engaged in, at all levels and in a number of areas, too, over the years?

Did m.'s interpretations, abuse, and perversion of the concept of spiritual AGYA pave the way for the virtual enslavement of thousands of well-meaning souls, for crimes committed and concealed, for the x-rating [sworn secrecy] of his personal activities, and for the accumulation and obscenely gross misuse of hundreds of millions of dollars in monetary donations?

Here is an excerpt from 'Life with Knowledge' (circa 1975), A Premie Guidebook, DLM, Chapter 6, entitled 'AGYA':
'You were told about this word, and explained its meaning thousands and thousands of times. And the word is 'agya'. If you follow agya, there is no big deal, no big problem. Then you don't have to worry. It's like, you're told to do something and you do it! ... It's Like Guru Maharaj Ji is standing a hundred feet above you and saying, 'Listen. You want to get out of this place? Okay. Now make a left.' And you go, 'I don't need your advice.' 'But if a person can be that humble and really understand that, 'YES, I AM A LITTLE CHILD, and I need directions,' then everything will be so beautiful.' -- Guru Maharaj Ji

Beautiful for whom? The mega-millionaire Master, or those spiritually entrapped and ENSLAVED?

Habits: 'Whatever you sow, you reap. If you sow good, you shall reap good. If you sow bad, you shall reap bad.' -- Guru Maharaj Ji
On the use of drugs and alcohol: 'Well, the only thing I can tell you is that, look, you already have a Knowledge that is much more superior than that. It is like this: a person is in one city and he is telling everybody, 'Oh, I want to go to another city as soon as possible.' And he has a falcon jet which is A-OK. It runs; it's perfect. But all he does is take his suitcase and start walking. And that's not the quickest way. It's not good to just say, 'Oh, I want this enlightenment to be soon as possible', and then instead, going to something that is completely inferior.' -- Guru Maharaj Ji
On marriage: 'What people do is they say, okay, we have to get married now, and then they get married. After some time they think oh no, I don't think I like this thing. I think I better get back to do service. And they leave their wives and they come back and it's like, they want to do service again, and they're really confused and I say, 'Man, do one thing. Make your decision whether you want to get married and stay married. You understand. Don't get divorced in two weeks because that is the most terrible thing you can do.' -- Guru Maharaj Ji

Service to the Master:
'If you want to be a disciple at all. If you want to be a real human being, first of all you have to be a servant. And how can one become a servant? By service.' -- Guru Maharaj Ji

Channels of Communication:
'...channels of communication through which DIRECTION can be given so that we all can work together. Therefore, everyone arranging any activities in either my name or in the name of Divine Light Mission MUST CONTACT Headquarters by telegram, telephone, or telex, FOR APPROVAL OF ANY PROPOSED ACTIVITY... BY ESTABLISHING THIS COMMUNICATION, ALL ACTIVITIES CAN BE APPROVED AND SUPPORTED BY THE DIVINE LIGHT MISSION, AND ANY SPECIAL PROPOSALS WILL BE ABLE TO COME TO MY ATTENTION BEFORE IMPLEMENTATION...' -- Sant Ji Maharaj [aka Guru Maharaj Ji aka Maharaji aka Prem Rawat aka Prempal Singh Rawat] (caps added)

So, don't blame the lowly servile operatives - when everything associated with the cult from the mega-money diversions to the songs played at events is sychronized by orders from the top - the buck clearly stops with miragey - a master of smoke and mirrors.

By the way, some of us even enjoy occasional meditation, etc. But our personal experiences have nothing to do with the greedy guru. For those who have distanced themselves a bit from the cult for awhile, looked at all the available information out there related to the techniques, the history, the already extensive cult documentation, and then reused their brains instead of relying on their emotional attachment and cult concept indocrination, the verdict is clear - miragey has royally abused and betrayed the trust of the premies.

He is therefore unworthy to be a guru, master, or teacher of anyone. Instead, he has shown himself to be a greedy guru, who has practiced cheat and deceit.

Premies, take back your lives - which some of you gave away a long time ago, when you surrendered the reins of your life and your mind to someone so unworthy, deluded and selfish. Remember: 'No cheat, no deceit' was his mantra. Well, he didn't practice it in his official capacity or personally. Therefore he has failed the test.

[Incidentally, Michele, I didn't think you'd apologize, either.]

You know, I used to watch cult groupies scramble and callously trample others in their services or at events just to get closer to miragey, sometimes thinking nothing of even undermining or sabotaging other premies, in their deluded cult personal aggrandisement mentality. The same personality types would naturally have no compunction or hesitation about facetiously or condescendingly doing the same to folks here. It's funny how some premies can be such ignorant egotists - who mistakenly think they've cornered a monopoly on truth - when the actual official personality cult representations are founded upon the quicksand of cheat and deceit.

Guru enshrinement and personality worship is ultimately an obstacle to enlightenment, spirituality, intelligence, liberation, and further progress on the individual's path of life and truth. Slavery is dead, premies. Wake up! There is a healthy holistic afterlife, here and now...

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 02:51:16 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: swami suchabanana
Subject: swami-ji, many thanks for saying it oh so well (nt
Message:

pranam

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 21:19:06 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: swami suchabanana
Subject: nice work suchanewdawn!...nt
Message:

;lasdfg

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:34:16 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: swami suchabanana
Subject: Swami***A BEST OF FORUM***post
Message:

Swami,
Bravo!
Ian

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:58:10 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: Swami***A BEST OF FORUM***I agree nt
Message:

nyt

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:20:50 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: swami suchabanana
Subject: Take good notes Michelle--
Message:

Well well...An impressive dissertation, indeed.

Michelle! Looks like this nice teacher gave you the cliff notes on Googoo M. and his flying Circus History Course.

Methinks there's going to be a pop-up quiz, really soon. Start Studying, and if you have any questions, why us fellow graduates will be too happy to help.

Deborah

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:21:23 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Michele, as someone who has began to go sour on EV
Message:

I welcome you here. I know that you are being attacked for spouting the gurujism party-line but I know that you are working through stuff and it is hard to really think it all through over night. It took me years. As I said to you before - as long as you don't clobber me with UFOs, I'll be patient with you and lend you a sympathetic ear.

But I also said to you that eventually one fact became inescapable - EV is M's creation, EV officials are hand-picked by M and they carry out his policies. EV's dysfunctionality is a direct consequence of M's dysfunctionality.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:13:12 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Its all so exciting isn't it?
Message:

Dear Ms.Deradune,

You are on very thin ice here. Get out before it all goes horribly wrong for you.

You haven't got the power you think you've got. The Maharaji issue does not cut both ways, with you-Mrs Strong in the centre, choosing the posture that pleases you.

Run, run! Never come here again or you will be turned to stone!

With love,

Bryn (a wellwisher)

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:20:19 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: What your friend said
Message:

Michelle,

Your friend said:-

we're lucky enough to get love and positive reinforcement from within. now how many people on the planet can say THAT!

Can't you see this is cult think??? Your friend actually believes she is one of a special group that gets this love and positive reinforcement from within.

Actually, the entire human race feels love (and if you know of somewhere else to feel it other than within please let me know), and can actually feel it far better free from the chains of your cult.

Get out now!

John

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:26:21 (GMT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: genius NT
Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:03:13 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: What's the point?????????
Message:

Michele:

You don't need to answer, and there are other premies (Erika Anderson for one) who have posted here under their real names for a while, but it's boring to read you spouting off the nonsense we were told for years. We don't believe it. You're not preaching to the choir here. Quite the contrary. You're preaching to those who have rejected M as anything except the source of meditation techniques that could be learned from many sources, and as a purveyor of weak, contrived and recycled truisms. So your proclamations (such as below where you say that you love M as your Guru (with a capital 'G') are meaningless to me, and are odd in the context of this forum.

I couldn't care less, and I don't get it. What's the point of posting such stuff here???? Do you have some kind of personal motive for coming on an ex-premie forum and declaring your love or loyalty to Rawat??? Even if I knew you personally I wouldn't care--I certainly do not have negative feelings for you as a human being or anything like that. I have premie friends and family members who love M, but I certainly don't need to know about it. I work very hard at supressing the gag reflex, believe me.

Other folks already made the points I would, some of which are:

'that' experience is available to anyone, through any manner of teachings, religions, meditations and personal experiences with or without the same

M doesn't say anything very original, or that hasn't been said before -- he's quite a pedestrian motivational speaker recycling all sorts of truisms

and on and on. Anyway, it's boring to read your posts and I only hope you are getting some value out of being here. But I probably will avoid most of them unless you start to get a few doubts in your mind.

best wishes and all that, f

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:38:43 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Well put Francesca...spot on (nt)
Message:

zz

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 12:36:52 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: You have a point Francesca
Message:

I think the frustration that a lot of premies have in not being able to say what's one their minds is showing off. F5 is one way to do it.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:00:11 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: my recent post under Lesley below is sincere nt
Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 22:40:26 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Continued
Message:

I haven't been able to write my Becoming-Aware-of-What-the-Fuck Happened-to-Me testimony because I am reeling in pain at my recent reality check.

Very Briefly
I have been away from Maharaji for approx. 12 yrs now. I very unintentionally drifted away and soon found that there was no Maharaji and no premies in my life. However, I had fond memories of M and all the experiences that I had. Two years ago I accidently came across this homepage while I was looking for M.

I was like you, although I did not engage in discussions about M except that I left a message to Everyone saying that I found the page and was not experiencing what they had.

Then last week I came back to see what people were saying. I won't go into which passages affected me right now but it unleashed some repressed revelations. The unconscious reservoir gates crashed open leaving me drowning in sorrow.

The TRUTH
Maharaji has intentionally fucked with Who he is, What he is about, and more stuff that will turn your nectar sweet blood in your veins to cottage cheese. Maharaji is the spin doctor on his marketing image. He changes his image to appeal to new generations. He's the Madonna of Spiritual charlitans. Maharaji is not explaing anything to you about the past, present, or future. You're just happy to see him, his form, his cute little smile, the sound of his voice. You want to hear him say, 'They never got my message, they're stupid, you, you all are the smart guys, I like you best'. Do you question him at all? Do you, Michelle? Do you really believe the odds that we are all insane and He is all Perfect. Does this conclusion comfort you while you suppress your doubts.

If you read carefully and conscientiously through these pages you will see that WE are talking about M, not K, and twinkly eyed, well meaning Sisters, we are talking about the Dictator/Master Your precious, precious Maharaji. Your ego is protecting you from listening with your heart and intelligence which I KNOW you have. You're here everyday, I admire you. Michelle, I can't explain how I feel right now. I'm 44 yrs. old and I've never ever ever hurt the way I hurt right now.

Remember Michelle. We are not trying to Recruit you. As a matter of fact, we want you NOT to have our experience.

Deborah

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 03:02:19 (GMT)
From: Mark Appleman
Email: None
To: Deborah ROSE
Subject: Continued
Message:

Hello Senorita Rose,

Interesting. Your current palpable anger, and recent 'delayed reaction' in the satguru myth deconstruction process, seems to be part of a serendipity. Our common friend Gary (your old roomie on Alton) called me out of the blue 2 weeks ago having had a similar sense of suddenly waking up to his OWN EMOTIONS.He said the THELMA post 'you too can be a satgooroo!' (see back in the archives a few weeks ) had been his apotheosis.

He saw that his emotional nature had been captured by a Hindu EMOTIONAL BODY snatcher, and suddenly was returned to him. Debby, he was as happy as Peter Pan with his shadow back! ( a tall Peter Pan that is ). He, like you, had gotten on with his life, drifted. Married, successful, etc. Even looked in here once or twice. But suddenly - a few weeks ago - WHAMMO!

Sadness, emotional flushing, disorientation. Yet at the same time he was aware of being suddenly MORE alive. He said it was like he realized he had been emotionally dead on some very important levels all these years and didn't know it !! Things had been put through his GURU filter.

I can't say I had had a more fun time with him on the phone in decades (he's a big business mucky muck in London these days). It was very emotionally rewarding. As it is hearing YOUR distinctive voice on these pages. Power to the People !

I said to Gary 'I guess you can't feel that you're a real cool Richard Gere, and mararaji is your Dalai Lama anymore. He said that hit it right on the head.

He had drifted away , but would always drop that he had studied under a very high guru, blah,blah,blah. and he felt very together about it all. But No Longer.

Anyway, I thought it interesting that the two of you hit the same point at the same time. THIS IS STILL A FASCINATING PLACE, THIS UNIVERSE.

Be well. Billy says hi.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:36:09 (GMT)
From: Richard Wallace
Email: expremie@home.com
To: Mark Appleman
Subject: Hey Mark!
Message:

Hope you email me some time. We've come a long ways since 1212 Josephine, eh? Do you know whatever became of the other folks that lived there? Rob and Ellen, Fred and Janet? I still live in Denver.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 04:49:23 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Mark Appleman
Subject: question
Message:

Are you from MI?

thanks

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 03:29:17 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Mark Appleman
Subject: Oh Mark---I'm really hurting
Message:

I haven't been able to function properly...I cry in restaurants, walking down the street...it's overwhelming.

Mark, I don't know how to explain to people who see me so sad what's going on. I'll be leaving here soon but I'll look for some words from you when I get back. I was looking for your email. Read your beautiful testimony/journal and got comfort but I need help. Shit, tears are racing and I have go back into the main library. I have the keys to a room in the University Library and access to a computer/phone etc. It's a good thing because I'm the walking wounded and I need time and space to adjust.

Deborah

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:36:34 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: Deborah
Subject: Deborah, you're right - it hurts a LOT!
Message:

What you are feeling is not weird or strange, although as PatC said, it helps very much to have support from people who understand what you are going through, and who have been through it themselves. It is true that most people don't 'get it' (I have a friend who left M suddenly, the way you did, was very upset - and a non-premie friend of hers, who had been sympathetic, asked her two weeks later if she wasn't 'over it' yet!)

I know it's very difficult to go through what you are going through. I do envy your ability to get in touch with your own grief and pain so immediately. Although this ability may seem like a burden right now, it will help you a lot in the end. I came from one of those 'stiff-upper-lip/everything's all right' backgrounds, and it can take me YEARS to process grief.

I was fortunate enough to live with two other people who were leaving M at the same time that I did. We were ALL basket cases at times - but we could be supportive of one another. Also, we were all fortunate in that we didn't have to function on a very high level in the 'real world' at the time! I hope you can take some time off from some of your responsibilities to take care of yourself (Swami Such had some good ideas about how to do this), or just to collapse/relax. I'm glad you're here on the forum too.

Lots of love to you - I put my e-mail above if you want to use it.

Take care -
Katie H

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 09:44:11 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: been there,done it. Good News:It gets a Lot Better
Message:

Dear Deborah:

Probably most of the people who post here have been through the steady process of cult scrutiny, then detachment and a personal reexamination - and the accompanying initial shock, the anger, the tears, probably despair, bitterness, sense of loss and waste in one's life, gut or chest pains, feelings of alienation, and so forth.

Especially for the premie longtimers, confronting the dirty hidden skeletons in the cult closet and the money trail [at least the parts that haven't been erased or laundered] begins what can be a difficult but liberating process.

First, some of us invested a huge chunk of our adult lives in the cult belief system surrounding m.'s personality cult. Some of us sacrificed the allegedly worthless illusions of careers and relationships, perhaps lived in ashrams, regularly gave hard-earned money that could have been better spent on ourselves or poor families, spent thousands of evenings at indoctrinating cult events, framed our life cosmology around dysfunctional miragey as the central concept-maker and worldly authority figure, and gave him the kind of unbridled love and devotion truly only worthy of the real God [or life energy] residing within each of us ourselves.

It's just like a divorce - takes some emotional detachment [the breaking of binding strings], healing, and a lil' time for oneself in that process.

It definitely gets a whole lot better progressively - within weeks. You'll be amazed at how strong and secure within yourself you may feel within a few months, too, rediscovering new or revived interests, new outlooks and epiphanies, opening up to new friends and a whole infinite spectrum of life without cult blinders and concepts -- as each layer of unhealthy conditioning, erroneous mental and emotional impressions [samsaras] is peeled away, revealing you in all your specialness as your own person.

Giving blind devotion to m. for years has engendered a false sense of learned helplessness and has perpetuated a co-dependent relationship on the part of many people, whereby thousands of premies have been enabling his own dysfunctional life and addiction to gross materialism [the maya] at the expense of their own lives and destinies and the fulfillment of personal goals.

You are a unique person, after all, and you have your own essence. Cultivate your talents and interests. Be kind to yourself each day. Spend some time with supportive friends or people with whom you can be yourself - without outside pressure.
Chuck out or store in a box out of the way [attic or garage or crawlspace], the photos, literature and vids etc. which just remind one continually of the personality cult.

If you want to acknowledge a higher power within, do what is comfortable for You now. You can meditate, or not. After a few weeks [or months], you'll be surprised how removed the guru seems from your experience of a direct inner relationship with your personal creator - no intermediary in between. We each come into this world by ourselves, and we leave it that way. But, don't feel lonely - because the universal life energy within you is taking care of you right now.

Situational counselling may be helpful, too, from a certified medical/mental health professional [who is not also involved with some cult or trip]. Lots of ex-premies have done it.

There is a gentler forum for recent exes or people leaving the cult. You can email the forum administrator for info. Sometimes this place [people] can be a bit harsh, although I think most people here are quite supportive of those in your situation.

Get plenty of exercise - that helps with any temporary depression. Walks, hikes, jogging, biking, aerobics, hatha yoga, stretching, weight training, dancing, etc.

Some natural herbs and teas are helpful when dealing with the depression that may accompany the cult exit.

I have personally found that peaceful pretty instrumental music, healthy meals, regular exercise, spending time in nature or just gardening, a support network of empathetic friends, and prayer [or faith in one's own intuition and new horizons] help.

There are some good self-help books that can help one understand cult and relationship codependency, setting personal boundaries, repairing hurt self-esteem, etc. Lots of longtime premies seem sad -- for good reason. They have suffered and endured a life of emotional deprival and suppression of their own unique essences, dreams, and intellects, in many respects. Their lives have been sublimated and sacrificed at the false personality altar.

Take a lil' time each day to treat yourself to at least one special or fun thing - go buy a bagel or cappucino [for instance], or select an interesting paperback book, watch a funny movie, go to an art museum, buy a new top, get your nails done, get a new plant, go someplace new, paint a picture, write or learn a song, take a college or recreational class that appeals to you.

If you are in a personal relationship, discuss your feelings with your partner. Give and receive lots of hugs with your family and friends.

Pretty soon -- you may be feeling great! Right now, sure it hurts. But, don't let the cult b.s. get the better of you - you are a survivor, after all. You've got time now to appreciate things and interests you may have neglected or missed in your life - or not considered before. Look at this moment as an opportunity for you to recover and to reclaim your life - with all the opportunities and choices out there up to you. You are then really free, as a human being - knowing, trusting your intuition and intelligence, stronger, mentally and physically healthier, wiser, growing anew each and every day.

Yes, it gets a whole lot better - with untold opportunities awaiting you each unfolding day, Deborah.

Lots of love,

from one who has truly been such a banana, too

da lil' swami such
jai suchabanana

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 05:16:29 (GMT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Oh Mark---I'm really hurting
Message:

You are getting in touch with yourself.

Tears of a deep joy based on real freedom perhaps? Or you truly feel sad?

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 03:41:54 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: I hope Mark posts his email coz you do need a pal
Message:

right now and a stranger, even a willing one like me, won't work. The crying and grief lasted for about a month for me and then it was either ''whoopee I'm free'' or ''I'm gonna get that miserable bastard!'' Maybe it's like being born again.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 22:23:51 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Michele
Message:

Michele,

If I remember correctly, you were one of the premies posting on premie.com before it got shut down. I think you got into some interesting discussions about all kinds of things, and, unfortunately, it's one of the reasons that that site is no longer with us.

Michele, since you want to speak from the heart, don't you think it's incredibly strange that none of the EV/Premie websites even allow for open discussion and debate? Don't you think that it's weird that Maharaji doesn't want that kind of discussion, and you are forced to come to a website of ex-premies to even be able to do that? Doesn't that bother you just a little? And how does that square with what your friend said:

Maharaji has again & again suggested that we be
real. that we come from the inside so strongly,
that we don't care what people think.

And when she said:

Maharaji doesn't want us to be all homogenized and so afraid of public opinion that we feel reticent to express ourselves.

If that is true, how come premies don't give satsang anymore, and why isn't Maharaji and Elan Vital sponsoring forums like this one so people can express what they think and feel? Why all the censorship and truncating of dicussion? What is Maharaji afraid of?

And then your friend said something that is truly frightening:

Remember amaroo 4, when he talked about the wild
horses? Sit & listen to that segment over & over
again. You'll feel so good, you'll start to giggle.
'

Sit and listen to it over and over again until you feel good. Yeah, right. That's real. That's being true to yourself. That's not programming. That's not a cult. No way.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 22:01:07 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: This is real sick stuff, Sister :(
Message:

Although I admire your candid presence here I think it is very sick that you don't realize the double-mind fuck philosophy being spat over the pages.

I never talked about that at the height of my guru-gullability.
Maybe if you listened to contemporary enlightened people or read a fuckin book you might realize that being true...blah blah blah is something every rational person is saying these days. At least in the 70's we we're saying something enlightened.

The fact that you think it is so special a thing to be uttered is because you are so inundated with your cult-thinking.

Michelle, go to the bookstore instead of satsang tonight and see if anything M says is not already in print. Fuck, stupid people know what your friend naively thinks is deep satsang. Is your friend a nun, why are you referring to her as a SISTER! She's a fuckin chick, broad, babe, female friend.

Please try to be sensitive about the buttons these terms have on this paticular group. THis is not an ordinary chat-room.

Why do you feel you need your friend's validation? Why do you need GooGoo Maharaji's validation? Why do you so deeply seek our validation?

If you would never like to feel the pain that comes with having to face the music rather than stick your fingers in your ears than don't think twice about he really is or is not.

Deborah

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:46:12 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Michelle
Subject: I think it's quite simple - you are enjoying the .
Message:

chance to communicate with people again after a long time of being a passive receptacle to m's nonsense. I used to think I felt more love etc than non-premies, but that's nonsense too - we have no idea what anyone else is experiencing. You had to 'confess' to your premie friends because you're so unused to taking a step on your own anymore. It's a process of self empowerment and one day you'll allow yourself to see the whole picture and - hey presto, another ex, learning to live your life on your own terms and enjoying the freedom to think again. You can meditate, do what you want - just don't credit miragey with all the good bits any more. It's just you, re-joining the human race.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:52:54 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: My comment on this
Message:

A premie wrote:

'we're lucky enough to get love and positive reinforcement from within. now how many people on the planet can say THAT!'

Well the answer to that is pretty simple - Just about every person on the planet can do that and does do that. For some reason, premies think they're unique. They are unique in thinking that they are unique.

And if the truth be told, most of their reinforcement comes from without, not from within. It comes from the Maha.

Chris Dickey wrote another error such as this on his forum when he said that most people do not know their true nature. Hmmm, that's a little arrogant, isn't it. You can't see why?

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:05:27 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: on this day
Message:

'Chris Dickey wrote another error such as this on his forum when he said that most people do not know their true nature. Hmmm, that's a little arrogant, isn't it. You can't see why?'

Most people don't pursue deep consideration of their true good fortune until disaster strikes. We even forget that. Hmmm

Certainly all people experience love and the awe of being alive.
It is often a fleeting occurance difficult to recapture.
What is wrong with more emphasis on life itself?
It is rather less common these days to praise true love of human beings than you imply. Money and action heros steal the show.
From what I saw on the news the other night there is hatred even in Jolly Old England. That is a bloody shame.

Now, on to my 50th year, here, tommorrow!

Cheers and long live hope and happiness and you too,
CD

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:49:25 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Happy birthday to you Chris and also
Message:

Fifty tomorrow! I've got to wait another 17 months for that privilege.

Just one point: You know how you and I and millions of other people watch a movie and sometimes feel a tear welling up in the eye. It can be embarrasing sometimes especially if I'm watching some soppy children's film with my kids and I find tears trying to force themselves out of my eye and down my cheek when the happy ending comes.

Well, we've all got that. Everyone I know has that problem, young and old, men and women. The film producers know that to and that's why they make films to tug at our heart strings - everybody has it in them.

So the point I'm making is that while on the surface of things, people might look hard and tough, we all have a soft centre. All the human race and not just a few select people. I have learned more about love and its sweetness and its pain over the last ten years than I ever did in the previous 20.

And that is why you see those dear old ladies and kindly old men with always a smile on their faces and a kind and helpful word. Perhaps it grows with age. But I am still only a beginner...

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:08:57 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Thanks
Message:

Thanks to you Dave and Pat for the nice words.
We do agree on many things.

I remain optimistic.

Bye for now,
CD

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:52:46 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: You're a breath of fresh air, Sir Dave
Message:

when you post your common sense kitchen sink sermons. Amen and hallelujah!

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:33:18 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Oh, Birthday Goddess. Happy birthday, Chris
Message:

and may you have many more. I'm saying this today because I'm sure you won't be on FV tomorrow as you will have better things to do. I wish you health, wealth and happiness.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:50:32 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Have you read the website ? if so what do you
Message:

think of the information on it ?

ps : we all know about 'that place' , no need to bang on about it.

Pat Dorrity

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:41:01 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: You are unique
Message:

Michele,

As far as I know, you are the one and only smart-card premie who has ever posted here under their own full name. For that, I admire you. I do not have much admiration at all for those premies who post here under an alias because they certainly appear to have a desire to express themselves but only in disguise. They don't want to get caught standing on their own two feet, independent of the master's direction.

This very issue prompts a question. Don't you feel it is contrary to Maharaji's direction for you to be posting here? The friend that you quote says that Maharaji doesn't want his premies to be reticent about expressing themselves. But I have a very strong impression to the contrary, that Maharaji does NOT want his premies expressing their individual unique perspectives about his Knowledge, rather he wants them to only talk about his Knowledge following his specific guidance and directions.

I don't mean to discourage your participation here. In fact, your perspective is an interesting addition to the discussion. And I do hope you let your sister know about the information here. I think everybody deserves to know it all.

p.s. I have to take strong issue with something else your friend said, about how unique it is for premies to be able to get love and reinforcement from within. My view of people is that they all have resources of love within them that they can tap into. It is not a 'rare treasure', like your friend claims. It comes standard.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:31:52 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: The US against THEM syndrome- Premie TALK
Message:

This post is really, really disturbing. I simply cannot believe it. And you Michele bring it here as if what she says is good? Please enlightme. I don't get it. You friend premie said:

'Well, if anyone does anything from their heart,
i don't think that is weird.
it is wonderful, as a matter of fact.
Maharaji has again & again suggested that we be
real. that we come from the inside so strongly,
that we don't care what people think.
because we're lucky enough to get
love and positive reinforcement from within.
now how many people on the planet can
say THAT! that is a rare treasure indeed.

Us gainst them; we are so especial;we are so lucky; rare treasure...Rare indeed IS! Strange, extraordinary, WEIRD!
What treasure, the one of walking around looking at 'the world' and feeling superior? DISGUSTING MAHARAJI, these are yoru words maharaji. You put those ideas in people's head and now premies sound like they are, pathetic.

Maharaji doesn't want us to be all homogenized and so afraid of public opinion that we feel reticent to express ourselves.

Oh, now premies can talk; the master gave premies permission to talk. How extremely lovely.

Remember amaroo 4, when he talked about the wild
horses? Sit & listen to that segment over & over
again. You'll feel so good, you'll start to giggle.'

How sad, very, very sad. This is a human being talking, like a total idiot! My GOD! I'm glad I never talked like that. I always talked and that why david Smith saw me as dangerous to the cult and wanted me out of my service as aspirant contact... but there wasn't NOBODY else to do it! LOL

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:16:52 (GMT)
From: Scot Jamieson
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: The Us versus Them scene works both ways.
Message:

As another person who is using my real name, and does have a smartcard, although I have stopped watching sattelite feeds or donating to EV, I, at least, don't mind you saying what you feel. Having Knowledge, getting Knowledge, and also leaving Knowledge all go deep into the realm of the heart, and in that realm it isn't at all clear how you're supposed to express yourself. Some people want a clearly anti-Maharaji attitude on the site, or become unwelcoming. But if you're in transition, it's often unclear how you look at Maharaji. It's a process having to do with deep feelings, not taking a definite stance. We all need a little slack to work things out. Take care, keep your heart open, listen to its beautiful voice. I would be glad to read what you post, oh fellow disliker of fences. Should I call you that?

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:26:26 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Scot Jamieson
Subject: Very nicely said, Scot J .......................NT
Message:

k

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