Disculta -:- Former instructor describes nauseating experiences -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 15:44:50 (GMT)

__ Salam -:- Petty and thick as a custard -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 10:55:54 (GMT)

__ janet -:- send him our support.we await his arrival greatly -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 08:51:47 (GMT)

__ wolfie -:- thanks......another friend of mine (nt) -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 08:47:13 (GMT)

__ Pauline Premie -:- This guy is a looser -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 00:51:58 (GMT)

__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Goddamnit, Pauline, you need a bitch slapping (nt) -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 04:06:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ sb -:- You sadist- hi roger. (nt) -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 15:04:37 (GMT)

__ Chuck Sprague -:- Nauseating experiences, IDOLIZATION and PARANOIA -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 00:27:51 (GMT)

__ __ Gary Epton -:- Nauseating experiences, IDOLIZATION and PARANOIA -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 04:12:49 (GMT)

__ __ PatC -:- Jim Jones: a quote from Way's link -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 00:36:30 (GMT)

__ Mercedes -:- Powerful indeed -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 00:20:35 (GMT)

__ Cynthia -:- Former instructor describes nauseating experiences -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:28:11 (GMT)

__ PatC -:- Many thanks, sweetie dahling, and to your friend -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:15:39 (GMT)

__ AJW -:- Wow. ***Best of J-M?*** -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 18:58:57 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Thanks !!! ***** Keep tagging them -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 23:31:23 (GMT)

__ __ Richard -:- The fear, arrogance, defensiveness -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:13:44 (GMT)

__ jim boeger -:- Former instructor describes nauseating experiences -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 18:38:52 (GMT)

__ __ bill -:- The fear was instilled by rawat. Dont blame -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:20:56 (GMT)

__ __ wolfie -:- too many millions and more..... -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 15:17:54 (GMT)

__ __ sb -:- Former instructor describes nauseating experiences -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 06:19:46 (GMT)

__ __ Curious George -:- Interesting post from Jim -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 23:28:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ know -:- Interesting post from Jim -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 06:21:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ jim boweger -:- Interesting post from Jim -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:51:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ janet -:- dont believe their math. it's never true. -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 09:17:57 (GMT)

__ __ Moldy_warp -:- Hello Jim... hang on in here... it gets better! nt -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 22:58:54 (GMT)

__ __ Scott T. -:- On the other hand... -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 20:49:48 (GMT)

__ __ Scott T. -:- This isn't about stage fright. -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 20:46:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- TO: Scott T. -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 22:18:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- I know Jim and he needs a lot of TLC -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 22:25:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- I know Jim and he needs a lot of TLC -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 05:28:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ JIM BOEGER -:- I know Jim and he needs a lot of TLC -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:01:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- I know Jim and he needs a lot of TLC -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 17:30:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- you're a highly intelligent blabbermouth, at that! -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 09:24:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- family traits (ot) -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 11:42:25 (GMT)

__ __ PatC -:- Hi Jim, nice to see you here -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:12:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ jim -:- Hi Jim, nice to see you here -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:21:15 (GMT)

__ __ AJW -:- Excuse me jim -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:03:59 (GMT)

__ Carl -:- My God, what an utter hell, a sad, sad story -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:21:25 (GMT)

__ Katie H. -:- Appreciate your friend letting you post these! -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:19:16 (GMT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- Thank you for this testimony! -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:17:36 (GMT)

__ __ AJW -:- Can you post a link to the French article svp? -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:18:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Which one ? -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 23:32:52 (GMT)

__ __ Disculta -:- Thank you for this testimony! -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:28:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie H -:- Catharsis -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:36:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Catharsis -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:46:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Seating Anxiety -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:02:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Dreams -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:19:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Dreams -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 20:38:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Catharsis -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:52:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Anxiety -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:07:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carl -:- Feeling tone . . . a very interesting term. -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:52:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Feeling tone . . . a very interesting term. -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:27:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carl -:- Feeling tone . . . a very helpful realization -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 21:25:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Feeling tone . . . a very helpful realization -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 00:32:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Feeling tone . . . a Southern black expression -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 12:31:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Anxiety and being the victim -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:16:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gary Epton -:- Anxiety and being the victim -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 22:05:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Anxiety and being the victim -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:31:56 (GMT)

__ Joy -:- M down on psychology - what about Marolyn/Valerio? -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:14:55 (GMT)

__ Ulf -:- Former instructor describes nauseating experiences -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 15:58:28 (GMT)

__ __ Disculta -:- Former instructor describes nauseating experiences -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:14:20 (GMT)

Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 15:44:50 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Former instructor describes nauseating experiences
Message:

One of my best friends in the world, who wants to remain anon for a little longer, but reads here and will soon post, sent me these e-mails about the experience of being an instructor for Maharaji. After the first one, I asked his permission to post it, and he sent me the second, plus permission.

Warning, this is powerful stuff:

First letter:

'There was a lot I liked in 5. Talk of the goings on at Amaroo made me feel a bit ill. The whole vibe of a middle school prom and the jealousies and social hegemony spured on by position and power plays... Yech, my attachment to that crap is still pretty strong, and was in fact a useful tool in extricating myself from the cult. The goings on at instructor trainings brought up more sucky feelings in me than I could stand. Some of it was truly terrible. Once, during a heated disscussion over the value of Psychology, during a break, a particular instuctor approached me at lunch with the most venemous look on his face. He started yelling at me in the lunchroom projecting his lifes hate for anything smacking of self examination, targeting me out of his belief that I was one of those secretly against Maraji because I dealt with such things in my personal work. (In the conference, Maraji bit Psych. and anyone who practiced any form of it in the ass pretty hard) Now this guy had his opportunity to vent years of hatred on me, somehow missing the fact that we we're in the same room together, ostensibly for the same purpose. A lot of people were castigated at that conference, anyone who dealt with ' the mind' OOOOga booooga! Funny, the one forum letter talks of how regimented the programs and speakers had become... That was Loring Bakers -and a number of others- greatest criticism of me as an instructor; that I was too much myself, too much of me was in the presentation! (maybe that's because I cannot get up and speak to anybody like an automaton!) Whew, I can still feel my anger over that! Well, in fact, a lot of the anger I developed over that kind of poop gave me the strength to split. I wish your latvian get together was at another time, later in the summer.'

Second letter:

'I guess the point of my expressing it is, how ironic it is that M. who speaks eloquently of how things fit together so beautifully in nature and life, seeks in his own personality, to divide and conquer in order to control. While trashing the study of psychology, and denigrating anyone involved with it, he created a division amongst the instructors that demonized those who had inclinations or experience there, that created deep levels of mistrust. In fact, his personality, like anyone's, was obviously run by the same defense mechanisms we all have. And like most, he seemed oblivious to them. All this was going on around the time of great family difficulty, as it was apparent in his sarcastic remarks that he and Marolyn were having problems. I believe that it was recommended that they get counseling. I think he resented that. Thus, all Psychologists were 'bad'. Pretty basic stuff. Actually, in hindsight, I remember - between bouts of anger that he would do that - feeling both surprised and sad that the 'Lord' would have a personality so riddled with defensivness. What was he so insecure about? But I dissmissed all that quickly, feeling guilty myself for even attempting to understand the 'divine personality' in the same terms as I would anyone else. A number of other instructors however, came up to me and let me know they felt M. was dismissive and in fact needed help, and were talking to someone close enough to him to see if he could be convinced to receive counseling. Many others of course saw that as crass arrogance, and I was too confused by my own unwillingness to admit that what I was seeing was true. I was too insecure myself in M.'s presence to trust my own intelligence. Therefore, I denied and denied, casting myself into a terrible inner turmoil. I cried at night sometimes, to ease the pressure of fighting within myself over the seeming contradictions I saw. How can his behavior be so ... well, petty? I could understand him having emotional concerns and relationship problems, but to project them amongst his instructors and set them against eachother to fight and act out his own problems? That seemed so like the behavior exhibited in the unhealthy family structures of abusers and alcoholics. The secrets, (there were many) the need for M to be fauned over, ( a lot! ) the parties and such where the competition to be M.'s favorite, or have him notice you was indescribably thick as custard... It made me sick. In fact, after a while of being exposed to it, I hated being around him. My internal pressure increased the more I witnessed his petty behavior and felt the emotional competition among the instructors, the 'family' of M.'s world. Once, I won a contest – I scored highest on an instructor test - and won the 'opportunity' to have lunch with M. I couldn't eat. I couldn't talk to him. He seemed to dislike the whole thing as much as I did. It was all so contrived. There I was, in front of all the other Inst. having jumped highest over a stick, now getting the reward of sitting, with a few other notables, at M's table. People all around the room would turn around to look, as if for that one hour, I was a movie-star, the envy of everyone in the room. Along with the others at the table, I tried to make some small talk to 'open the door' and try to get comfortable. M. was disinterested, stared off in the distance - was somewhere else - and I felt like a big idiot. The whole thing, the pretense of it all was revolting. So I scarfed down my food, got up and left. It took every ounce of courage in me to walk out of that room. Every eye was on me. I had forty five minutes or so of 'bliss time' left, and I walked out on it, walked away from the Lord. The struggle within myself was tearing me apart. Were my perceptions correct? Did M. act like an insecure middle school bully, a hurt child not able to admit to his pain, afraid to simply show everyone his vulnerability and admit it like anyone. Were the other people in the room just being themselves, or was I right in sensing the dysfunctional family dynamics I felt was rampant there. Was I just full of my own shit? Was it all just my projection and I just couldn't handle it? I went outside and broke down, sobbing in disgust and bewilderment, unable to admit that the whole gathering looked and felt like the worst nightmares of my childhood, something I vowed never again to participate in for the rest of my life. Now, here it was again, as the answer to my prayer to serve God. I was heartbroken. At that evening's party, while M was surrounded by adoring women waiting on him hand and foot, lighting his cigeretts, pouring him drinks, and he enjoyed himself by making the guys do stupid humiliating things, again, I questioned myself. Am I just jealous? Is it that I really want those girls to be fauning around me? Again, the same nausea overwhelmed me and I went back to my room. I wanted to be an instructer. I believed in knowledge, but I was deeply disturbed and afraid inside, because I was so confused about M. I juggled that pain for the next three years, giving talks and avoiding M. as much as I could. Yes, if you want, print this.... I feel too sick to my stomach even now to continue writting. More later... Disillusioned.'

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 10:55:54 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Petty and thick as a custard
Message:

I like that.

Keep it comming.

Great stuff.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 08:51:47 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: send him our support.we await his arrival greatly
Message:

since you say he reads here, i can address this to him directly:
i hope when you finally reach the decision to 'come out', that you will want to do it under your real world name, that we knew you by. Everything you have inside you to tell, indeed, to spill, will carry that much more ringing power, for you to dump out, and for us to welcome-- and for anyone who knew you in your capacity in the heirarchy. I hope you decide soon. Your years of carrying the junk that was forced on you need not be a private hell. You have friends here. You will be greeted with acceptance and respect and all the genuine human value that you never got when slaving away in the masses.
if you have fear, chuck it. if you have embarrassment, kick it out. if you have pride, then stride right on in. we have a chair reserved here with your name on it, for you, and no one else, when you're ready to walk in and make your presence known. We knew you then, and we would like to get to know you now--as you truly are, for what you WANT to be known as/for.
there is no heirarchy here. that bubble is burst.
donner is just donner. dettmers is just dettmers. I'm myself and you're yourself, and i greet you with equanimity and respect, one adult to another.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 08:47:13 (GMT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: thanks......another friend of mine (nt)
Message:

hh

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 00:51:58 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: This guy is a looser
Message:

I can't believe it. Here somebody had the opportunity to sit and be completely miserable in the presence of the Master, and he left, just because he was in pain and found Maharaji revolting. Unbelievable. Literally millions of people would crawl accross hot coals for years, just for that gift of being in Maharaji's presence, even if they were excruciatingly uncomfortable the entire time.

Have you heard of MIND?? It's strongest around Maharaji and if you are in dire agony in his presence, and if you find his behavior so nauseating you are about to throw up, it just means knowledge and Maharaji's darshan are working, destroying all the evil, filthy, disgusting impurities inside us. After all, we must understand that without Maharaji, we are nothing more than intestinal parasites that are expelled from stinking, infected bodies in great discharges of diahrea. That Maharaji even acknowledges our existence is due to his supreme love and kindness. As he said so many times, we do not even have the right to look at him, let alone expect that he might glance in our direction.

Yes, we are just parasites begging for the right to exist. Can a parasitic beggar be a chooser? Of course not, you idiot. If Maharaji actis like what seems to us to be the ultimate, uncarring jerk, and that gives us unbelievable, excruciating pain, it's because that's what we need in that moment, and it's so beautiful. Sometimes I stick needles into my face and under my fingernails just so I can be reminded how beautiful it is to be around Maharaji and the PWKs.

I wonder how many more lifetimes this guy will have to wait to have the opportunity to feel such revulsion again. Plus, all of this is just so life-affirming. I mean, like Maharaji says, it's all about being in love with life, the life of an intestinal parasite, that is.

And I LOVE Loring Baker. He is a true manifestation of an evolved intestinal parasite. He and David Smith have mastered the art of being automotons and sounding like they have been lobotomized. I've heard David no longer has any voice inflection left, and cannot even dress himself anymore. Isn't that so beautiful?

And that's the look Maharaji is after for all PWKs, and certainly anyone given the supreme privilege of speaking about knowledge or being an instructor. Otherwise they might be too much 'there' and take away from the dynamism of Maharaji's great speaking abilities. I think Loring is well on his way.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 04:06:36 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: Goddamnit, Pauline, you need a bitch slapping (nt)
Message:

argh!

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 15:04:37 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: You sadist- hi roger. (nt)
Message:

sb

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 00:27:51 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Disculta
Subject: Nauseating experiences, IDOLIZATION and PARANOIA
Message:

Katie:

Your friend's emails were very revealing, thanks for posting them, I hope he will share more with us. What he said reminds me of two of the bigest trademarks of dangerous cults, IDOLIZATION, and PARANOIA.

After meeting Marianne in person, I was reading up on the internet about the Larry Layton trial, as I know she was involved in that case, on the defense team for Mr. Layton who was being tried for the murder of Senator Ryan in Jonestown. I have found one article in particular, by Rev. John Moore, who lost two daughters and a grandson in Jonestown. He knew many of the cult members over a period of 10 years, and visited his children and grandson in Jonestown in May 1978. That was the last time he saw them, because they died in the suicide-murder there in November 1978. He believes they died because of the way they IDOLIZED Jim Jones, and were PARANOID about any criticism of Jones or his organization. He maintains that without those two factors, Jonestown could never have happened.

When I was a premie, I was really annoyed by any comparisons to Jonestown. I thought the comparisons were unfair, but the more I read about Jonestown, the scarier the similarities seem. Sure, there are differences too, but the biggest similarities are not only the idolization and paranoia, but also similarities between the People's Temple members and the premies. They were often nice, kind, idealistic people, just like many of the premies I know. They also would not question their master, and would not tolerate criticism, and made every kind of excuse for him. They paid for that with their lives.

Even if we are to believe that M. would never do anything deadly (dead premies don't send checks, and a dead guru can' t enjoy his yacht, cars, planes and Malibu mansion), where IS this all going? The potential for abuse is very great. The abuse your friend describes is a red flag. Jones was also abusive.

M. is now lying on his website by saying he never claimed he was divine, and at the same time, is curently telling the premies to ''NEVER DOUBT the purity of the Master'', to sing Arti ''and MEAN it'', to not go through the darshan line ''...because your mommy told you you should, but only if you are ready to show some real RESPECT''. And lets not forget the return of the ''paranoia satsangs''.

Meanwhile, he is being introduced as a new-agey meditation teacher to aspirants, who are then carfully cultivated to be receptive into believing he is something more, as they ''progress'' in practicing his ''Knowlege''. M. may not be Jim Jones, but he certainly knows Jones's techniques. Jones said and did some beautiful and generous things too, to lure people into his power. He got people to idolize him. Then came the ''paranoia satsangs''.

In John Moore's article, he mentions our very own Marianne Bachers by name. Marianne, it must have been horrible for you to be collecting that information about Jonestown, and seeing the similarity between People's Temple members and your premie friends, to the extent that many of them idolize their Master, and are paranoid of any criticism of him, and the way they make excuses to rationalize anything he does, and the covering up for the lies and the secrecy surrounding him.

Sure premies, there are differences, but there are way too many similarities for anyone looking at it rationally to feel comfortable about. I used to brush off comparisons with Jonestown, but I have to remind myself, the Peoples Temple members were also following an ideal, and felt they were safe. They also left ''no room for doubt in their minds''. They didn't see it coming, they believed it wouldn't, couldn't happen to them. They were fatally wrong.

For anyone interested in reading about John Moore talking about ''what went wrong'' that caused his two daughters and grandson to lose their lives, here is the link.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 04:12:49 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Nauseating experiences, IDOLIZATION and PARANOIA
Message:

I've excerpted the final couple of lines in John Moore's report as an apt admonishment to all who post here:
Idolatry is to place one's ultimate trust in that which is not ultimate, and to give one's elemental loyalty to people or ends that are undeserving of such loyalty, and to cherish above all else that which is unworthy. The challenge to all of us is to expose the gods that are not God as we continue on the journey of faith.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 00:36:30 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Jim Jones: a quote from Way's link
Message:

Jeanne Mills, a former member of the People's Temple and subsequent victim of assassination a year following the November 18, 1978 Jonestown suicides/murders of 911 church members, wrote these words:

''When you meet the friendliest people you have ever known, who introduce you to the most loving group of people you've ever encountered, and you find the leader to be the most inspired, caring, compassionate and understanding person you've ever met, and then you learn that the cause of the group is something you never dared hope could be accomplished, and all of this sounds too good to be true, it probably is too good to be true!''

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 00:20:35 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Powerful indeed
Message:

Thank you dear Disculta for printing this letter. I feel that deep inside we know yet we are torn because we don't want to believe what our guts are telling us. It is a totally dysfuntional situation. I am glad your friend is out and feeling the pain of withdrawing from the whole cult. Send him a big hug.
And also I wish to thank you for your posts, they always help me.
Love,
Mercedes

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:28:11 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Former instructor describes nauseating experiences
Message:

Hi Katie,

Many thanks to you and your friend for posting this. What courage to get up from m,'s table and walk!

I want to offer him a warm welcome to the forum. It's scary to post at first, but he sounds like he's well and has some stories to tell, too.

I hope you are well, too...take care of yourself (I know you do),
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:15:39 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Many thanks, sweetie dahling, and to your friend
Message:

for posting these letters. Please invite him to have a mini Pigeon Fanciers' Night with us if he is in SF later this summer.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 18:58:57 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Wow. ***Best of J-M?***
Message:

That's powerful stuff Katie. Thanks to your friend for writing it and letting you put it up.

It captures the atmosphere around the Captain very accurately- lots of performing monkies squabbling for a seat at the Captain's table. It also confirms what everyone tells us about his personality.

Your friend was brave to get up and leave the table. All power to her (him).

I hope she (he) starts posting soon.

Thanks again,
Anth, it brought it all back.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 23:31:23 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Thanks !!! ***** Keep tagging them
Message:

I have a lot to catch up, but I keep saving them .....

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:13:44 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Former Instructor
Subject: The fear, arrogance, defensiveness
Message:

I agree that this is a ***BEST OF FORUM***.

Thank you for writing this chronical of life with M. I'm sure it is difficult for you to revisit these intense emotions but I hope it is cathartic and healing. You have justified my own feeling that M is fearful, arrogant and defensive. Anyone who needs to ridicule and diminish another's experience so much, must be a small person indeed. The thing that I could not except in M, eventually, was his arrogance that he knew what was what even though it was obviously not true. I don't mean his certainty about himself or K but his obvious need to feel better than everyone else.

The closer one gets to M, apparently from what you and others have posted here, the less of a human being he seems to be.

Please do continue to bring this Forum and all who monitor it more of your valuable insights.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 18:38:52 (GMT)
From: jim boeger
Email: jimboeger@hotmail.com
To: Disculta
Subject: Former instructor describes nauseating experiences
Message:

disculta.after almost 30years of trying to 'practice Knowledge' i feel that i am very qualified to say that i think i have recently realized that a very big obstacle for me has been my own timidity which is FEAR.......which i think you could say is caused by DOUBT...SELF-DOUBT.....LACK OF FAITH....whatever you want to call it. at Montrose 1972, New York,1972, i had opportunities to converse with Mr. Rawat, then still a child. one time i was alone with him at the New York ashram brownstone i think on 83rd streeet, the top floor. i had been doing service arranging the charter flight information for the trip to India Hans Jayanti '72. i was 20........ i was terrified. i always have had a certain amount of stage fright. so i wasn't able to be myself with him. i don't think i can blame that on him.
just the other day i participated in a cross country premie conference call. it was so boring and tedious, i was in agony. but did i open my mouth? sadly, no i did not. i sat there and allowed myself to suffer. can i blame someone for that? we allow our thoughts to repress us and then we suffer. at this time it seems Mr. R is conducting propagation trainings to help people understaznd how to propagate. that was the subject of the call..we had just watched a satellite broadcast of the last day of the last amaroo program wherein M said that 50,000 aspirants FROM THE DELHI AREA were expected at the next Delhi program. listening to the American premies talk about the need to learn how to propagate. not one word was mentioned about propagation in India.i just felt like screaming at them 'didn't you hear what he just said to a worldwide audience not more than an hour ago? 50,000 aspirants from Delhi alone!!!' i held my tongue. i said nothing. i just sat there and felt angry. now i'm fairly sure that ONE word would have changed my experience completely. i could have calmly said 'India'. i could have whispered it....

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:20:56 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: The fear was instilled by rawat. Dont blame
Message:

yourself. It is not some fault of yours, this 'timidity'
is a product of the cult. Always you have had to repress
all YOUR desires and impulses.
Same with the rest of us here. Stick around, you will find
yourself helped here.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 15:17:54 (GMT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: too many millions and more.....
Message:

Hi Jim,

when I received k in 73, they told us M has millions of followers around the world. I think you can hear it in this film Satguru has come.
Somehow this statements you talk about, make us feel guilty. There are 50000 people waiting in India, and in the rest of the world there are 500 people waiting, so come on premies move your asses.
More we learn to speak about knowledge from his special trainers, more fear gets involved. I can honestly say, this fear around M nearly made me sick till I started to go away. How should I care for my 'soul' if I can't care for my own nature.

Anyway India is too faraway from my understanding, and maybe they like it so much and the same people come again and again and nobody checks it properly. So he has millions of followers in India since the beginning.
Maybe he has a competition with his brother, anyway sooner or later, they depart India into Satpalis and Elan Vitalis ( this is a joke!) But 1000 000 000 people in India, there is so much heartbraking service to do.

take it easy....that's the trick Marolyn once said in a Satsang......yeah .... who cares..no fun ...no love..no nothing!

ciao.......wolfie

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 06:19:46 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: Former instructor describes nauseating experiences
Message:

Hi Jim,

There is real life after K. Whatever you do, remember he brainwashed you in many ways and taht your subconscient mind is full of traps. Reason and you will not go back. I wish you well. Make yourself strong and forget about him. Is not easy for me at times but is getting better and better.

The best for you,

Love,

SB

PS: Lard sucks! He is sick.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 23:28:50 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: Interesting post from Jim
Message:

DearJim,

I found your post interesting - we were all and many still are like the children in The King's New Clothes. We are too afraid to speak up. But the little urchin did and we are the brave ones that do speak up. I'm going to be tuning in to a conference call very soon just because i'm Soooooo curious!

One thing I didn't really understand was your reference to India. Obviously Americans aren't falling for the same drivel but could you elaborate about your comment 'India'when conferencees were trying their damndest to learn how to propogate (poor buggers).

Thanks,

Curious George

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 06:21:22 (GMT)
From: know
Email: None
To: Curious George
Subject: Interesting post from Jim
Message:

there are not 50,000 in Delhi but in India.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:51:50 (GMT)
From: jim boweger
Email: jimboeger@hotmail.com
To: know
Subject: Interesting post from Jim
Message:

 

WRONG.DID YOU WATHCHJ TEH STATTELLITTE ROADCAST SUNDAY.J JHE SAID 'frOM THE DELHI AREA' IM PRETTY SURELY 100% POSITIVELY NOT GUILTY. OF MISTAKEN NIMISREPRESENTATIONALISMS

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 09:17:57 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: jim B
Subject: dont believe their math. it's never true.
Message:

dare yourself to break the taboo and speak up next time. take notes or keepa scorecard thruout f all the things you find wrong. start acting on those thoughts and impulses and reactions you get to all the crap.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 22:58:54 (GMT)
From: Moldy_warp
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: jim boeger
Subject: Hello Jim... hang on in here... it gets better! nt
Message:

x

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 20:49:48 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: On the other hand...
Message:

if you're saying that it's time for you to speak up, and talk about your own concerns and misgivings, then I agree that it can make all the difference. In the end the decision is yours, but in this case it's not your doubts that you need to fear. It's your unwillingness to examine them.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 20:46:12 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: This isn't about stage fright.
Message:

Jim:

I don't think this instructor was burdened with stage fright or lack of faith (although he clearly became disillusioned). He may have been slightly in awe of M at close range, but mainly what he's talking about is the degree to which Maharaji fell short, not only of his expectations of a leader but of a decent well-balance human being. It occurs to me that he's provided us with another way to tell *good* charisma from *bad*. Look at the way the 'leader' manages the relationships around him. If they seem like amplifications of his own dysfunctions then perhaps you're dealing with someone who isn't even *trying* to be an adult (and has lost the charm of youth).

This all reminds me of something I read in Plato's *Republic* about the motivations of a tyrant. Essentially he felt that a tyrant is motivated by the need to appear to control all of their own desires. Note this isn't to *give vent* to them, but to be self-assured that all desires are under the individual's control. Being out of control is the enemy. The situation Maharaji seems to set up around his person is a way of convincing himself that he's in control. The fact that he can't control himself is something he *needs* to overlook.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 22:18:55 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: TO: Scott T.
Message:

Hi Scott,

You wrote:

This all reminds me of something I read in Plato's *Republic* about the motivations of a tyrant. Essentially he felt that a tyrant is motivated by the need to appear to control all of their own desires. Note this isn't to *give vent* to them, but to be self-assured that all desires are under the individual's control. Being out of control is the enemy. The situation Maharaji seems to set up around his person is a way of convincing himself that he's in control. The fact that he can't control himself is something he *needs* to overlook.

It is no mystery to me now why I was so vulnerable to the Maharajism cult. The above clearly describes my father and Maharaji. I take responsibility now for my vulnerabilities then, yet will never let anyone, especially m or my father, ever oppress me again.

I don't know where jim is coming from or why he posted. All I know is that I am quite familiar with living under tyranny. My father was a tyrant of the 1st degree, and my greatest desire as a premie was to be close to Maharaji, who I have now discovered is a tyrant with a MISSION.

Both taught me how to hate. Both taught me I was worthless. Both used and abused me. When I became physically close to Maharaji I noticed my anxiety level rise; at the same time, premies told me how ''blissed out'' I looked because I spoke with him every day. Later on I saw him every day, up close and personal. I may have felt blissed out on some plane but the anxiety and stress of pleasing that creep was beyond any reasonable expectations (his).

Both tyrants in my life rejected me, my father did it through a lifetime of heinous abuse and forcing me out of the house at age 19 to fend for myself; then Maharaji threw me away like so much unusable trash after my DECA burnout.

I look from a different perspective now and can say that being around m was no picnic. He is a tyrant and must be in order to stay completely in control.

The joke on both is that I can live my life very well without either. I can see through their lies and I have healed through (most) of the woundings.

Living well is the best revenge. It's just that after being around tyrants all my life, I have had to learn (an ongoing thing) what ''living life well'' really means.

Thanks for your post,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 22:25:59 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I know Jim and he needs a lot of TLC
Message:

very hurt before and during his days in the cult. I just hope he comes back and talks it out with us and heals himself.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 05:28:21 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I know Jim and he needs a lot of TLC
Message:

Pat:

It's odd. Early on, before I was a premie, while I was still an aspirant, I wasn't intimidated by Maharaji at all. In fact, I wasn't particularly intimidated until I began to soak in all of the awe the premies had for him. I've also noticed in Toastmasters that I was a rather fearless public speaker until someone started counting my 'uhms' and 'ahs' and I began to get really nervous, and lost my taste for it. I also had the problem that the system they used to communicate the time left was color coded, and being color blind I got badly burned on that deal. As a result, I quit going to Toastmasters. So, I get derailed as soon as circumstances start to make me self-conscious. Still, I'm a blabbermouth, so nothing keeps me down for long.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:01:07 (GMT)
From: JIM BOEGER
Email: JIMBOEGER@HOTMAIL.COM
To: Scott T.
Subject: I know Jim and he needs a lot of TLC
Message:


SCOTT. i was curious why you ....oh well, didn't yyuu ever hear of stage fright. it can hppen in front of a cdrrdcrecrewoedcroewdcrowd or just one person it's an enery thing. your remarks are interesting. makes me think that what yoyu exoeperienced was even more remarkable. if you're generally not nervous, then something was doing it too you. righty? jim b

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 17:30:28 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JIM BOEGER
Subject: I know Jim and he needs a lot of TLC
Message:

Jim:

Ultimately I think I pretty much had to be 'doing it' to myself. However, recognition of that is probably necessary to having an effect on the phenomenon, or counteracting the immobilization that occurs. No, I don't think there's any evidence that I was acted on intentionally and purposefully from the outside. More like we're programmed to behave this way under certain circumstances... and ultimately we can override our programming, or allow it to be more controlling than it ought to be.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 09:24:12 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: you're a highly intelligent blabbermouth, at that!
Message:

for which i am repeatedly grateful.i soak up your posts like pure oxygen.
your surname fits you. it must be an inherited family attribute.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 11:42:25 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: family traits (ot)
Message:

Janet:

My cousin, Bruce Talkington, had a personna very much like Robbin Williams. In fact, he was a close friend of Williams, and won several emmies in his own right as creator of the Winnie the Pooh and Gummy Bears cartoon series for Disney. (Bruce died suddenly about six months ago, of as yet unknown causes.) The thing is, neither of us started out with the surname 'Talkington.' We both changed our names to that of our maternal grandfather, Wayne, in the 1970s, who was a profound influence on both of us. Gramps was anything but talkative. In fact, his nickname was 'Budge,' because of his resolute fortitude (whicn some people saw as just plain stubborness). We loved him a great deal, warts and all.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:12:26 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: Hi Jim, nice to see you here
Message:

Are you the Jim I know? Certainly sounds like it. Now see, as I've told you before, the way to get rid of that fear is to turn on the master who's got that leash so tight around your little neck and go ''WOOF! GRRR! Get the fuck off my back and out of my life or I will pee on your leg.''

Good luck.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:21:15 (GMT)
From: jim
Email: see somewherealready
To: PatC
Subject: Hi Jim, nice to see you here
Message:

welll darling. i triedwanted to get back to you yesterday6 but everytime i tried to get onto the post, thje fuckig theing would say you kjust did dosomething illeganl and would shut coswn ymnmy computer and id have to start ita lll alll aoover again. so i did tha three times and agave upl iklmmmm im so hjappy to be on line it's realh in credilble. a firend jave me this compyuter just oyut onf f the ble lblbleubnbvbbb bljunb blue. and im having a goooodkk time..i think the pot ios ios is helping alot l i would have to sya i think you have belhelped me alot toeeelllfo i mean too. so im lookijng forward to seeing youa tat at futeure cult meetings. bythe way. km, the premies shut down icity forest lodge last sunday, with me being the only dissenting botbovote. its going to he interesting to see what happens nowl. jim

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:03:59 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: Excuse me jim
Message:

hi there jim,

this may sound a bit daft, and forgive me if I've got the wrong end of the stick, so to speak, but are you telling us here that our problems come from our own doubt and lack of trust of the Perfect Master?

I can't quite tell from reading your letter where you're coming from jim. Are you a premie? If so, why are you posting here?

Anth the muddled.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:21:25 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: My God, what an utter hell, a sad, sad story
Message:

of emotional desolation. That brother's story epitomizes the discord, the disconnect, between the words, the actions, the feelings and the results in that nasty world.

Mariachi has built up SUCH a wall of separation, and tries to thrive in an arid world devoid of simple genuineness and personal, companionable feeling.

Oh, he maybe he can speak about simplicity quite glibly (or incoherently), but to actually extend simple, common, decent fellow-feelings to his fellow creatures, without guile or manipulation . . . why, it seems this just isn't allowed, what with being the Lord and all.

Look what's gone to his head: I Am God Almighty On Earth, Above And Beyond All Other People. Other People Are Basically Foul And Very Much Beneath Me. They Should Give Me Unquestioned Loyalty And Practically All Their Money. And Their Fresh Nubile Blond Young Bodies.

He may actually believe it all, poor sod.

He may need counseling more than anyone else on the planet, a major, cathartic upheaval, and become as born again. (Not in the evangelical way, although wouldn't that be a hoot?)

Yeah, he and Tony Soprano should go into intensive therapy. For panic attacks.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:19:16 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Appreciate your friend letting you post these!
Message:

I was too insecure myself in M.'s presence to trust my own
intelligence. Therefore, I denied and denied, casting myself into a terrible inner turmoil.

Sheesh, can I ever relate! I hope your friend will feel comfortable enough to post here soon. He is able to describe the his feelings about it so clearly..

It's very true what he said about the descriptions of the dynamic around M resembling an alcoholic/abusive family, only on a greatly enlarged scale. I was also trying to escape that dynamic when I started following M, but, as I'm sure you know, we go towards what feels comfortable to us - the extended play version, in this case!

Also, I agree that it's difficult to get rid of one's attachment to the power plays. I, thankfully, was never close enough to Maharaji to participate in it, but I did do unkind things to other premies I was close to because I *wanted* to be closer to what I felt was the inner circle (in this case, the ashram premies - snicker). I also still have twinges of those feelings about my own family dynamic - sort of ridiculous at my age, but it's very deeply programmed in me. And I also get sick to my stomach (literally) when I think about it.

Thanks, Katie, and thanks to your friend as well.
Love,
Katie H.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:17:36 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Thank you for this testimony!
Message:

I can understand so much of what's been expressed here.

I hope he/she comes out and shares a bit more ....

Hope he/she's not too depressed !!

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:18:24 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Can you post a link to the French article svp?
Message:

Bonjour Jean-Michel,

J'etais offline quand tu posted the original et je missed it.

Hope all is well with you, Paris and les malades animaux.
a bientot

Anth le fromage de tete.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 23:32:52 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Which one ?
Message:

everything is on the French forum ....

I'll keep a copy of the magazine for you !

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:28:14 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thank you for this testimony!
Message:

RE Jean-Michel's comment, 'I hope he/she's not too depressed' He's not depressed at all. He's been 'out' for at least 13 years, and hardly remembered the whole thing until I insisted he look at the forum. I just want to say that he has an incredible, creative life full of all kinds of service work, creative expression and personal love, and is a very cheerful guy. It was just the effort of dredging this stuff that got him a bit pissy, but I think he sort of enjoys it, too, because it is quite catthartic. It's cathartic for me just to read it!

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:36:45 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Catharsis
Message:

Hey Disculta,
Just reading what your friend had to say has brought up ALL kinds of feelings in me - yes, catharsis.

One thing I particularly remember is the overwhelming feeling of anxiety I had at festivals/events. Events were the closest that I got to being around M, and while I was there I was constantly putting myself down and judging myself because I wasn't in 'that place' or having 'that feeling'. (I actually knew people who went to festivals and relaxed and had a good time - not me! In fact, I judged THEM too!)

I am thankful that I never was an instructor, a PAM, or anything like that - I can't imagine.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:46:13 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Catharsis
Message:

I know what you mean darling Katie! The social anxiety of the cult is one of the things that I occasionally still dream of. I was involved in assigned seating - it was often my service. I loved having a seat up front, but there was so much in-fighting and wrangling for seats and importance. I remember one year at Hans Jayanti in Kissimmee, when it was my service to get the huge assigned seating thing organized, Raja Ji printed up assigned seating passes and gave them to all his rich friends, creating havoc and trouble for me. Then I became the official 'enemy' of RJ and co for a while - but I was just trying to do my assigned service. It was crazy-making.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:02:38 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: The Katies
Subject: Seating Anxiety
Message:

I still have dreams about getting a seat at a program, believe it or not, 20 years later. That horrible feeling of being left out, of not getting close enough. There was SOOOOO much anxiety around that. I don't dream about anything else that went on at the programs, just that fight to get a good place and how you had to step on everybody else to get it. That really caused a lot of trauma for me (and a lot of others, it seems). It's sad to hear that it still goes on.

Just goes to show how deeply ingrained was our belief that he was Lord. If we didn't really feel that, it wouldn't have mattered so much, would it?

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:19:10 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Dreams
Message:

Joy, I can relate. I never was able to get a good seat at a program, so thankfully I don't dream about it. I still have dreams about forgetting to drop a class in college and having to take a final exam in something I know nothing about at the last minute - after 20 years! (My student workers get really upset when I tell them this - they think graduating will stop those dreams!)

Don't know if seating anxiety proves that we thought he was Lord - it is sort of a group mentality of everyone thinking that it's REALLY important to get closer, and it feeds on itself.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 20:38:38 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Dreams
Message:

I still dream that I haven't studied for my 'A' levels (British High School graduation exams that seem about equivalent to a US college degree!). In actuality I did my usual last minute cramming and did great, but somehow that part of my brain has not met the part that is terrified of blowing it. This dream happens about once a year, and I have to wake up and talk to myself: you got straight A's, you passed the exams, it's alright.

Then a year or so later it happens again. I think that this and the premie social anxiety dreams are my only recurring dreams. Well, there is an occasional recurrence every few years of a small fat personage, but still the overwhelming feeling is the stress of trying to get closer to him in a litter of other mawling premie kittens.

I only recently found out that this exam panic dream is a very common thing, when I told my mom about it (she was a university teacher) and she said, Oh yes, we all have those dreams. Who knew? Where are the books about this? Who has done the studies. Maybe we can get a grant.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:52:38 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Catharsis
Message:

Did you read the thing about Amaroo where there was no assigned seating and the 'New York and South American' premies pushed in front? People must have been freaking out!

Am dealing a lot with trying to understand my own anxiety right now - it's only when I look back at my time in the cult that I realize how high my anxiety level was ALL THE TIME back then. I didn't suffer the physical burn-out that you and others did, but I sure can understand it.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:07:56 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Anxiety
Message:

I know what you mean. When I look back, I was experiencing a low-level of anxiety ALL THE TIME. No wonder I needed to spend so much time under a blanket trying to focus on my breath. I think that what happened to me was that it somatized into my body more than into my mind. I wish I had gone to a really mature therapist back when I first got sick, who could have noticed that I was under this intense, debilitating pressure to move in the ashram when I was happily married, and to somehow appease the abusive insults of MJ that I wasn't devoted enough if I didn't do this. I tried to appease him by overdoing it when I was clearly ill. I remember dragging myself to DECA to do a few hours of filing, when I was too dizzy almost to stand up. And the fumes at DECA made things worse. And he would come by and not look at us.

Although it feels a bit victimy to write like this, I am trying to find in myself the real feeling tone of how I set off on this course that led to being ill for 20 years. I feel that I am getting more and more validation, and that at a certain critical point, this validation will kind of release some of the imprinting for me. I've done everything else humanly possible, both in the health field and the clearing of beliefs field and all the other dimensions of healing work I do. But I think a big key lies in the insane level of crazy-making stress I was under, but didn't know or have acknowledged that I was under, so I just blamed myself for being crazy. My buddy quoted above describes that so well, and I think it is very helpful to me. It's like, when you really get that you were abused and that it wasn't okay, you can let go of feeling that there is something wrong with you and then you have the choice to redirect a lot of energy. There's also the choice to keep recycling the resentment, which I'm not choosing.

Yes, I was anxious to the point of doing behaviors that ruined my health.

love Katie

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:52:53 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Feeling tone . . . a very interesting term.
Message:

Years ago I read a book called 'The Nature of Personal Reality' by Jane Roberts ('channeling' Seth), that was very helpful in putting my life back together while questioning my cult involvement. The concept/experience of 'feeling tone' was key.

Do you know about that book, or is the feeling tone idea a common term in psychology?

Anyway, the book wasn't as woo-woo as you might think. Very clear, technical even, and a Godsend at the time.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:27:21 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Feeling tone . . . a very interesting term.
Message:

Boy, I'm with you... do I ever know that book! Been into all that stuff since I left the cult, but rarely talk about it here. I teach seminars about feeling tone.

Recently I've been through another turn in my path where I have realized that the 'feeling tone' or 'vibrational resonance' that I am emitting can be consciously influenced (for the better) to a much greater extent than I ever realized. It's much more powerful than positive thinking and seems to me to be the key to changing my health.

The ex-instructor I quoted is into this kinda stuff too.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 21:25:41 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Feeling tone . . . a very helpful realization
Message:

How nice to speak with someone who's familiar with that material. Jane Roberts' many books have helped some other ex's I know to become ex's. Such inspiring common sense! No fantasy or mythological rigmarole! Refreshing practical wisdom. I sort of came to consider Seth as a friend, like I look forward to meeting him somehow, somewhere. (now, maybe that is going a little far, but that's how I felt/feel!)

Thank God the publishers finally changed that awful cover from the earlier editions. Do you remember that horrible purple radiating spiral with a most unflattering b/w photo of Jane looking up out of the center, like a witch. You really can not judge a book by its cover.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 00:32:21 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: darlingwave@aol.com
To: Carl
Subject: Feeling tone . . . a very helpful realization
Message:

Yes, that was an awful cover.

I have had a lot of experience in the realm of channeling and spirit guides and all that, but prefer to talk about it offline, or off this forum (we talk about all that kind of stuff on the RE forum). My e-mail is above.

love Katie

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 12:31:14 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Feeling tone . . . a Southern black expression
Message:

Oliver Sachs, the noted English-born neurologist, discusses feeling tone in his extraordinary essay The President's Speech. That essay is about aphasia (the partial or total loss of the ability to ... comprehend spoken or written language... ) a dreadfully disabling condition. People who suffer from aphasia may develop a praeternatural sensitivity to feeling-tone as a sort of compensation for the inability to understand speech.

As Sachs says ...
This too becomes clear - often in the most striking, or comic, or dramatic way - to all those who work or live closely with aphasiacs: their families or friends or nurses or doctors. At first, perhaps, we see nothing much the matter; and then we see that there has been a great change, almost an inversion, in their understanding of speech. Something has gone, has been devastated, it is true - but something has come, in its stead, has been immensely enhanced, so that - at least with emotionally-laden utterance - the meaning may be fully grasped even when every word is missed. This, in our species Homo loquens, seems almost an inversion of the usual order of things: an inversion, and perhaps a reversion too, to something more primitive and elemental. And this perhaps is why Hughlings Jackson compared aphasiacs to dogs (a comparison that might outrage both!) though when he did this he was chiefly thinking of their linguistic incompetences, rather than their remarkable, and almost infallible, sensitivity to 'tone' and feeling. Henry Head, more sensitive in this regard, speaks of 'feeling-tone' in his ( 1926) treatise on aphasia, and stresses how it is preserved, and often enhanced, in aphasiacs (see footnote).

The footnote reads ...
'Feeling-tone' is a favorite term of Head's, which he uses in regard not only to aphasia but to the affective quality of sensation, as it may be altered by thalmic or peripheral disorders. Our impression, indeed, is that Head is continually
half-unconsciously drawn towards the exploration of 'feeling-tone' - towards, so to speak, a neurology of feeling-tone, in contrast or complementarity to a classical neurology of proposition and process. It is, incidentally, a common term in USA, at least among blacks in the South: a common, earthy and indispensable term.
'You see, there's such a thing as a feeling tone ...And if you don't have this, baby, you've had it' (cited by Studs Terkel as epigraph to his 1967 oral history Division Street: America).

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:16:13 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Anxiety and being the victim
Message:

Hi Katie -
I don't think it's 'victimy' to write like you did - we CHOSE to do that stuff, and I think part of the reason we chose to do it is because it felt comfortable to us on a certain level (extension of our childhoods, or whatever!)

I wrote a post to Sandy below about releasing anger from the heart. I hesitate to call it 'righteous' anger because of all the negative connotations, but that's what it feels like. I don't think anger is the same as resentment, or at least not REAL anger. And I think suppressing that is a lot of what made us sick, physically or mentally. I also think there is a lot of deep fear behind the anxiety - but I find that far harder to deal with than anger (because it's scary as shit!).

I'm thinking about this stuff a lot - in process, as you might say.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 22:05:28 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Anxiety and being the victim
Message:

This should probably go as a separate thread but I will post here because it is apropos to your discussion. I suffered from a 'double bind' for 15 years. While my intuition and intelligence told me I had everything to be angry with m about, and felt that he had betrayed my trust and wronged me with his advice vis-a-vis the ashram and consequently about relationships, having children, family, friends, career, etc., I couldn't bring myself to denounce and renounce him because I was too deeply programmed and did not have the information available on this site. These days I think he steers clear from advising people how to live their lives and focusses more on devotion to himself as master and the inner experience.

Back then, on the one hand I knew I simply had to get on with my life and accept that circumstances had changed, and on the other, a very fundamental feeling of being betrayed: used up and spit out. I would think like: 'this is just my concept of the loving master being challenged' or 'it's all inside so don't bother my little head about it' This kind of thing. I continued to go to see him and suspended (or repressed)judgement.

I now realize that what I was doing is called rationalizing. How could the one responsible for showing me this gift be 'bad'? I have always derived benefit from practicing the techniques (and continue to do so). The more I read other's personal interactions with m the stronger I feel. Since posting here I feel more empowered, in control, responsible - truly a therapeutic exercise - but would love to hear more from any lurking ex-initators or ex-PAMs. Thanks to the ex-initiator who allowed his letters to be posted here.
Gary

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:31:56 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Anxiety and being the victim
Message:

Yes, it's a delicate edge, between anger from the heart, as you brilliantly call it, and resentment.

When I first left the cult, anger was my greatest discovery. What a jewel! I did lots of breathwork and found that I could feel it deeply AND transmute it into energy and power that helped propel me forward on my own path. I know you have done similar processes.

The anxiety is more of a revelation to me. I think it was a subtle energy hidden behind a gross energy, like a bass singer behind an orchestra, or my husband Jitendra with his soft very deep voice trying to be heard in a crowd. Not that I want to equate him with anxiety!

All love and power to you as you process. Don't turn into cheese ;––) Remember to watch Whose Line Is It Anyway on Thursday ABC at 8pm. That will keep you cheery as you go through...

love Katie Darling

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:14:55 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: M down on psychology - what about Marolyn/Valerio?
Message:

If he's so down on psychology, I wonder what he thinks about Marolyn's having gotten a degree in it from the nearby Pepperdine University? And what about his trusted honcho Valerio who supposedly has a PhD in it from the same Univ.? What does he say to them? Does he bully them with abusive comments and try to discount their interest in it?

God, what a creep. The scenario of him being waited on hand and foot by legions of adoring nymphs (whom he no doubt sleeps with when he feels like it), cigarette and cognac in hand, is indeed nauseating. And all the while fostering the total illusion and charade that he's somehow divine and we should give him our love and respect and lives and money. He is one sick puppy (in this psychology student's estimation) and should be put out of business ASAP -- power to all you potential lawsuiters!

Thanks for sharing this, Disculta.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 15:58:28 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Former instructor describes nauseating experiences
Message:

Scary indeed, do you know what year this took place ???

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:14:20 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Former instructor describes nauseating experiences
Message:

I think he left in the late eighties, but he will tell all soon enough.

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