SloeBurn -:- Ending This -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 21:17:37 (GMT)

__ kev -:- Ending This -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 20:42:49 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- Just thought of one thing that might help -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 19:20:29 (GMT)

__ Chuck Sprague -:- Ending This... netural topics of interest... -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 18:06:22 (GMT)

__ salam -:- what is more important, -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 11:55:44 (GMT)

__ suchabanana -:- tough,but True;the Process may be hard but FREEing -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 11:16:31 (GMT)

__ __ Gary Epton -:- Truly a *BEST OF* post, thanks for encapsulating -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 02:11:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ Curious -:- A question -:- Mon, May 07, 2001 at 05:46:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Gary Epton -:- A question -:- Mon, May 07, 2001 at 15:26:33 (GMT)

__ __ Babs -:- *****BEST OF FORUM***** -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 01:59:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- *****BEST OF FORUM***** I 2nd the motion *BEST OF* -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 04:33:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- Definite*BEST OF FORUM* for this whole thread!(nt) -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 13:57:02 (GMT)

__ __ such -:- [para 7]',now that there is no mental obstacle'(nt -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 22:58:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ Forum Admin -:- Typo corrected per your request NT -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 04:16:09 (GMT)

__ __ Brian Smith -:- This is the kind of post that keeps me coming back -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 22:31:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ Marianne -:- Oh Brian! ot -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 02:50:18 (GMT)

__ __ Bin Liner -:- You excelled yourself with that one . Thanks (nt) -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 21:48:18 (GMT)

__ __ SB -:- Excellent post! -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:26:30 (GMT)

__ __ PatC -:- I made a copy of your post, Such and I will email -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:17:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ Tony -:- Me too,an excellent summary. nt -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 06:14:56 (GMT)

__ __ Francesca -:- Such -- brilliant post, especially the end -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 16:16:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ such -:- dear Francesca... (ot -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 21:58:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- dear such... (ot -:- Sun, May 06, 2001 at 00:01:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ such -:- I feel such compassion for Marolyn and the kids... -:- Sun, May 06, 2001 at 09:25:28 (GMT)

__ __ Nick -:- tough,but True;the Process may be hard but FREEing -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 13:31:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks for your post, Nick -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:26:55 (GMT)

__ __ salam -:- suchji----------------ot -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 11:51:37 (GMT)

__ CD -:- enjoy now -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 01:22:40 (GMT)

__ __ G -:- false vs non-absolute -:- Mon, May 07, 2001 at 00:59:08 (GMT)

__ __ PatC -:- Thanks for being candid, Chris -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:32:11 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- re. M saying 'things of real value' -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 03:58:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ CD -:- re. M saying 'things of real value' -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 20:57:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- re. M saying 'things of real value' -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 21:17:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- No one finds what you claim is inside chris.....nt -:- Sun, May 06, 2001 at 01:53:16 (GMT)

__ __ GERRY -:- so true, Chris -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 01:50:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ CD -:- so true -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 21:10:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ Diagnosis sought -:- Chris and sandy, what is the real flaw there?...nt -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 11:30:56 (GMT)

__ Bin Liner -:- There are no Masters , incarnations of God ... -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 23:15:36 (GMT)

__ __ SloeBurn -:- There are no Masters , incarnations of God ... -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 13:04:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- Great gem there, SloeBurn -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 16:20:33 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- Calling all ex-premies who practice 4 techniques -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 23:09:45 (GMT)

__ __ Gary Epton -:- Calling all ex-premies who practice 4 techniques -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 04:43:42 (GMT)

__ __ SloeBurn -:- Calling all ex-premies who practice 4 techniques -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 13:14:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ CD -:- 4 techniques -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 21:06:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Bob -:- rugu -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 12:08:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ CD -:- u r -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 21:02:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Gary Epton -:- u r -:- Sun, May 06, 2001 at 05:02:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- u r -:- Mon, May 07, 2001 at 20:40:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- u r-------------------------------gggggg -:- Tues, May 08, 2001 at 12:14:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gary Epton -:- u r -:- Tues, May 08, 2001 at 01:44:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks for articulating that so well, Gary -:- Sun, May 06, 2001 at 17:40:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- u r- AMEN!!! nt -:- Sun, May 06, 2001 at 11:56:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- u rug ur gu rugurugggg -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 23:50:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Encountering Mr. Rawat. -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 22:47:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- rugu - he who uses his followers for a RUG n/t -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 18:56:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- I hope you can find support here, Sloeburn -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:44:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- By all means, use us for support! -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 16:37:01 (GMT)

__ Babs -:- Finding the way out -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 22:28:17 (GMT)

__ Gregg -:- Ending This -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 22:15:08 (GMT)

__ JHB -:- Ending This -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 22:00:15 (GMT)

__ __ Helen -:- Ending This -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 01:22:15 (GMT)

__ Way -:- Ending This -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 21:54:50 (GMT)

__ __ Bob -:- Ending This -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 00:25:02 (GMT)

Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 21:17:37 (GMT)
From: SloeBurn
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Ending This
Message:

My wife was a premie since the early 70s.. I guess still is although she hardly every attends events any more. Sends our hard earned cash though. Anyway, I love her so much and none of that matters to me. The way I found out about this website is that I was doing some investigation into 'finding Knowledge' for myself. One one hand, she says it is the most fulfilling thing in her life, on the other hand, her eyes look sad when she talks about it. In the past, if I challenged the idea (I challenge everything until I can prove what's True) she would totally freak and start acting kooky. She is normally a very level headed gal. I went to a local meeting and watched the videos which seemed really great. However, the people seemed to be in a somber zombie-like state. I was worked up for this and expected to see people radiating intense joy. I have met some enlightened people and that is how they appeared. Comfortable in themselves, and so beaming with happiness that it overflowed to all around them. These folks seemed like they were enduring a long and painful sickness. But the message still sounded great and I kept doing research (I am a seeker, but I seek very carefully) I found out about all of this (the child abuse stuff, the things about Lord M, etc.) and I presented it to her gently. I think I may have made a big mistake. She is acting funny... I am worried about her mental health. Can she take it if all of this stuff turns out to be true? Has anyone here brought a loved one safely 'down from the mountain'? Are my worries that she will have a breakdown justified? For our relationship and her well being I want her to be rid of this cult. There are real Masters out there and they don't act like this. The genuine Masters I have met are very normal very humble hard-working middle class folks, but they have that something special and radiant that makes your arm hair stand on end. On the other hand, I am beginning to believe that she has built so much of her inner strength on this straw god that she might fall apart if he is exposed to her as a phony. I would almost rather have her keep believing in him.. but I also love her too much to watch her making a fool out of herself. Okay.. I am rambling, but I would love some feedback and advice. I was hoping maybe I could connect with some of the people she used to know who maybe got out safely.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 20:42:49 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: Ending This
Message:

Hi SloeBurn

I can not really add to the great advice that some of the posters here have already given you.
You say you are worried about her mental health this of course is only natal but you must remember that it is a very stressful thing for her to go through. The realization that a very large part of her life has been based on a lie and that someone that she loved and was/is so devoted to has let her down so badly. This, I can tell you from my own personal experience can be the biggiest mind fuck of them all.

When you are in a cult you give so much of yourself and it is hard to reclaim your own identity outside of the cult. The emotional ties of being in a cult are so very strong. For me it was very much like that film The Matrix where the main character is brought out of an imaginary world in to the grim realtities of the real World. But all I can say is that once your in the real World and you realize there's no going back you also realize that this World is still quite a good place to be in. My only advice would be not to force things. If she wants to leave she will but let it be at her own pace.
My personal hope is that it will all come to an end soon. Premies are very thin on the ground at the moment and getting thinner as we speak. But I fear m could well hold out for a few more years yet. But I feel we are very much watching the end game.

Take care of yourself and your Wife,

Kev.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 19:20:29 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: Just thought of one thing that might help
Message:

SloeBurn:

If it is extremely confronting to your wife that you practice K without M's blessing, why not practice some other form of meditation? As Pat says below, they are all just techniques. I personally don't like the ones I learned from M anyway, although they are fine for some people.

There are plenty of other teachers out there, and even books where you could learn to meditate. Jack Kornfield and Thich Nath Hanh have books and tapes, and there are countless others. It may take the pressure off freaking her out over practicing K without initiation. If you go to any bookstore that carries this sort of stuff, you can browse the books and see what 'rings' for you, and start there. Or talk to other meditators in your community. Some communities have local peer groups of one sort or other where peers teach each other to meditate, rather than a poo-bah teacher. Also John Kabat-Zinn has books and tapes on meditation that don't involve being a Buddhist, or being any 'anything' (Wherever You Go, There You Are, and Full Catastrophe Living) (Kabat-Zinn tapes). I often use his and Plum Village's tapes (Thich Nath Hanh) when I'm tired, sick, lazy or fried.

Truth be told, a lot of meditations that involve breath are similar to 'holy name,' but are superior in my opinion, because there are more expansive uses and extensions of the technique, i.e., they are not just about merely following your breath like holy name is, although that's one style. Many techniques use following your breath as a starting point, rather than the whole point. Also, the lack of body awareness in K has been known to space out those of us that are more cerebral. There are other techniques that incorporate the body or parts of the body, the ambient sounds in one's environment, etc., bringing us more fully into the moment instead of spacing us out.

But as Pat said, they're all just tools to go within and realize that within is also without, so you are not missing anything by not practicing K if that freaks her out. Just a thought, don't know if it could help you here.

--f

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 18:06:22 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: SloeBurn
Subject: Ending This... netural topics of interest...
Message:

SloeBurn,

It can be a real shock for a premie to hear about a lot of the information here. Your wife may need time to assimilate it, in her own way. I agree with JHB, that perhaps discussing the Indian background, might be a more 'neutral', non-threatening way of talking about her exprience with Maharaji, rather than confronting her about him directly.

The people who write about the Indian background are mostly academics, who are merely interested in observable facts and historical records. They don't have an agenda or vendetta against Maharaji, they are not ex-premies (though David Lane is an ex-satsangi, but that also gives him some insights as well).

I was shocked to found out that Maharaji's 'secret' techiniques were also known as common yoga techiniques, taught by many people freely and openly (The only reason for keeping the techniques secret is to manipulate people). I learned about Bhakti, and how M. uses that combined with Kriya yoga techniques to create his own religion of devotion to himself, a cheapened version of Rhadasoami guruism.

This helped me to see him and what he is doing in a whole new way. It helped me to look further at what I was involved in, to then start looking at it all more objectively, and to eventually find my own answers and a way out that was right for me.

Probably the best thing you can do for your wife is just love her, and don't try to change her. Give her space to change, but let her decide, and find her way. If you educate yourself about the Indian background, you will have a better understanding of what she got involved in, and it may give you some neutral topics to discuss with her. Most of us did get involved when we were young, as it sounds like she did. Neutral information about the background of what she got involved with may feel less threatening than questioning her feelings about M., and lead to a more objective examination of the whole thing for her. When M. was new to the west, much of this information was not commonly available.

And Helen is right, too, it's not like your wife has to throw out everything cold turkey. The truth always holds up to scrutiny. If she does allow herself to question, she can let her understanding evolve and change, and decide for herself what really helps her. It may be a process, not a sudden break, and that's ok.

I still practice the four meditation techniques. But I practice them the traditional way, as Yoga, not Maharaji's way. He teaches them backwards, and all mixed up with bhakti yoga and all sorts of religious crap. It's like his satsang, he can say some good things, but it's so mixed up with rubbish, it just makes the rubbish sound more credible. But the rubbish is still rubbish, when held up to scrutiny.

There is a lot of information on this site, and links to many sources. Read it and learn. It can take a while to assimilate, I read over a period of two years before finding my way out. Give yourself and your wife time. I'm affirming for you that everything will come right for you both.

Best Wishes, - Chuck

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 11:55:44 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: what is more important,
Message:

you wife or the truth?

What a shit decision to make ha?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 11:16:31 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: tough,but True;the Process may be hard but FREEing
Message:

Dear brother,

You sound like a very caring and conscious person.

Especially for the premie longtimers, confronting the dirty hidden skeletons in the cult closet and the money trail [at least the parts that haven't been erased or laundered] begins what can be a difficult but liberating process.

First, some of us invested a huge chunk of our adult lives in the cult belief system surrounding m.'s personality cult. Some of us sacrificed the allegedly worthless illusions of careers and relationships, perhaps lived in ashrams, regularly gave hard-earned money that could have been better spent on ourselves or poor families, spent thousands of evenings at indoctrinating cult events, framed our life cosmology around dysfunctional miragey as the central concept-maker and worldly authority figure, and gave him the kind of unbridled love and devotion truly only worthy of the real God [or life energy] residing within each of us ourselves.

The 4 techniques of meditation themselves are very old, and are shown by others, too, sometimes with no strings of devotion attached whatsoever. The come-on that the so-called knowledge is free is not true -- miragey sells it with a price - buying into him in order to receive it. Those strings are further sewn into the individual [like a puppet] by promoting the notion [via innuendoes nowadays] that one's inner experience is somehow tied to or reliant on him -- a fallacy. One can practice meditation and have some peace of mind and nice experiences without devotion to him at all, or going to the mind-numbing Big Brother vids, either.

When m. first came to the West, he presented himself as the Lord saviour in human form - divine. Now, it's watered down for acceptability and palatability in those societies where many people are now wary of cults and have heard about Jonestown, the Rajneesh debacle, Scientology brainwashing, Sly Baba, Maranatha, holy rollers, evangelical rip-off artists, Hale-Bop suicides, and other cults.

The decades of mental and emotional reinforcement by m.'s lectures, the videos, and association with other premies themselves create a huge mental onion of cumulative layers, that when peeled, however, reveals an emptiness at the core -- that is, the part surrounding m. and the cult organization itself.

Now, there are some of us who still enjoy doing various techniques of meditation. For instance, I incorporate some zen and Tibetan approaches of breath meditation. Even my mainstream medical doctors recommend breath meditation for health and relaxation. Also, I generally meditate on the inner light and inner sounds now in a quiet dark room [at night or early morning] without poking my fingers on my eyeballs or into my ears. I actually feel closer to my own Creator [or energy] within me, now that there is no mental obstacle of a guru or intermediary in between.

Giving blind devotion to m. for years has engendered a false sense of learned helplessness and has perpetuated a co-dependent relationship on the part of many people, whereby thousands of premies have been enabling his own dysfunctional life and addiction to gross materialism [the maya] at the expense of their own lives and destinies and the fulfillment of personal goals.

Miragey preached a mantra of 'no cheat, no deceit.' However, the facts presented on this site reveal a clear pattern of cheat and deceit by m. and his organization. He denounced drugs [and many premies felt guilty for indulging], yet did them himself - pot, booze, cigs. He and the org practically extorted money from premies through guilt trips to support propagation. Yet, the majority of the money has gone to support him and his extended family in fabulous riches. He loves to quote Kabir, yet he avoids telling the premies that Kabir also said emphatically that a true saint or perfect master does Not ask for or accept material wealth/riches from his devotees. He ran over and killed a bicyclist in India with his car, then switched cars in the motorcade, split the scene and let an innocent premie take the blame instead. He knew about reported complaints regarding a pedophile instructor, yet did not facilitate justice or offer apologies or compensate the victims or their families. After he got a cream pie in the face in Detroit in '73 and his brother, the WPC, and some instructors instigated a retaliatory murder attempt that almost killed reporter Pat Halley, he ordered his subordinates [including Michael Donner and involving DLM President Bob Mishler] to aid and abet the cult fugitives from the law to avoid prosecution and adverse publicity (e.g. 'get Fakiranand out of the country'). He and his older brother waged a bitter court battle in India over the earthly spoils of the family 'guru business.' He asked his personal financial advisor Michael Dettmers to procure young blonde premie women for his sexual pleasure, while he was married to Marolyn. Money that well-intentioned premies donated ostensibly for propagation and DLM/Elan Vital has been routinely diverted for expensive cars, planes, yachts, residences, watches, and other trinkets and material riches for 30 years. He authorized the creation of shell corporations [e.g. Seva], not EVI, that actually control the assets derived from the premie donations; and he controls those corporations through the interlocking directorates [in fact, the $7 million yacht Serenity is listed as being for the personal benefit and use of the 'owner']. He also derives wealth from premie-owned businesses in which he was given shares. Amaroo is not a non-profit corporation land holding. He sold the Malibu house premies bought for him for $250,000 back for about $5 million 4 years later, yet still lives in that house today remodeled and maintained at premie expense [estimated at 28,000 sq. ft. with a marker value of $25 million]. After purchasing and refurbishing expensive luxury jets with premie money, he has repeatedly gone out and bought new more expensive luxury jets, only getting a fraction of the projected mileage and lifespan on each plane. He has allowed his aides to verbally bully and abuse the premies. When the ashram premies began aging and it became evident that the cult would eventually need a medical plan and retirement homes in the future, he disbanded the ashrams instead.
He led premies to believe that they should pray to and worship him, even though he apparently admitted that he did not hear their prayers. Instead of taking any blame for mistakes or failings due to his directions, he routinely put the blame and guilt trips on his subordinates, the organization, and his devotees. He has to date not accepted responsibility, blame, or accountability for these things.

No cheat, no deceit -- That is why, finally, many of us longtime devoted premies had to say 'adios'. I mean, come on, how much does it take before intelligence kicks in -- even in spite of the cult brainwashing to subjugate our wicked minds and never leave room for doubt, especially regarding him. Sure, lots of us have messed up, too, in various ways in our lives. But none of us has claimed to be the master of perfection, the Lord of the Universe, the satguru, the saviour of mankind. What kind of role model do we have here? What kind of saviour of mankind behaves thus to his own devotees? What kind of master of hypocrisy is worthy of such blind devotion? Is this just some divine game [lila] or illusion being played? No! Are the facts presented on the ex-premie.org website lies? No. Most of them come from public records and/or eyewitness accounts.

Ok, now, what to do? When a longtime premie sees the information posted on this site, here are some typical reactions/patterns: initial disbelief, dismissal, justification, and anger, denial, then maybe some curiosity, then upon further investigation: shock, pain, sense of betrayal, anger, bitterness, sadness, then a sense of a veil being removed from one's eyes, a burden being released, gradually a newfound freedom, a sense of growing self-awareness and discovery, self-esteem, and a desire to experience more out of life that was missing or previously denied.

There is a gentler forum for recent exes or people leaving the cult. Sometimes this place [people] can be kind of harsh. If she seems fragile already, then get the recent exes email address from the forum administrator [as listed above in the menu at the top of the page]. Also, I would recommend finding a good certified mental health counsellor (with Ph.D. or at least M.A.), preferably one who is somewhat knowledgeable in this field of cult detachment [but one who is not attached to any cult or religious trip]. There are some self-help books that help, pertaining to codependency, personal space, setting personal boundaries, respecting oneself, etc. Lots of longtime premies seem sad -- for good reason. They have suffered and endured a life of emotional deprival and suppression of their own unique essences, dreams, and intellects, in many respects. Their lives have been sublimated and sacrificed at the altar of miragey's Napoleonic gluttony.

That having been said about miragey [master of the mirage]. I finally had to forgive him, because the anger and bitterness of betrayal was a terrible burden for me to carry around anymore. However, I hold him and the organization accountable for a number of things that have affected the premies and their families, and there must be full disclosure and responsibility accepted. Upon my last breath, I don't wish to be judged, either, for the pathetic failings and mistakes in my own life. But, because of my devotion to miragey, my only beloved child was taken from me, and I was denied my rights as a Dad in court, for being a cult member -- right after the Jonestown massacre. Now, my adult son won't even give me his phone number or address -- he is still angry and bitter, too. So, the harm has thus been perpetuated and passed along to another innocent generation - premie children. Imagine the prolonged suffering I went through when my wife left the cult and walked out, and then I was not even permitted to have my boy visit me, when I lived in a premie house!

I would naturally advise kindness and patience, lots of walks, talks, listening, hugs, and making and taking some time for special new experiences and fun or interesting excursions, finding a new vitality and joy in the simple everyday pleasures of existence, discovering and nurturing latent talents, professional and personal interests, and sharing new adventures together. Also, once [and if] she voluntarily takes the first step toward cult recovery, get rid of any miragey photos in the house, vids, etc. that are constant reminders.

I really must go now. I hadn't anticipated reading your post. But, after reading about your situation and your wife's plight, I felt honorbound and compelled to immediately respond. I wish you and your spouse abiding happiness and the best of luck -- and a new life of shared journeys, contentment within your hearts, and peace in your minds.

Ciao,

Peace and lentils,

da lil' swami
[who is such a banana, too]
jai suchabanana... haha

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 02:11:20 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Truly a *BEST OF* post, thanks for encapsulating
Message:

so succinctly the whole 'exiting' experience - my sentiments entirely. Excellent commentary and advice for premies, 'spouses of', fence-sitters, and exes alike. Gary

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, May 07, 2001 at 05:46:04 (GMT)
From: Curious
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: A question
Message:

Are you 'new' here? I don't remember that last name.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, May 07, 2001 at 15:26:33 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Curious
Subject: A question
Message:

That's okay, as long you're remembering the holy name . . . actually I've been posting here for the last couple of months - check the recent archives if you're really curious.
Gary

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 01:59:51 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: suchabanana
Subject: *****BEST OF FORUM*****
Message:

It's a keeper, such. I'm printing out copies. You must have been divinely inspired. Best explanation yet. Merci, swami ji.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 04:33:30 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: *****BEST OF FORUM***** I 2nd the motion *BEST OF*
Message:

Forum***** five stars, two thumbs up blue ribbon post
Whooooo baby

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 13:57:02 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: J-M_FA_webmaster
Subject: Definite*BEST OF FORUM* for this whole thread!(nt)
Message:

ddf

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 22:58:26 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: [para 7]',now that there is no mental obstacle'(nt
Message:

correct text: paragraph 7

w/o an unintended typo r.e. double-negative awkwardness mistake

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 04:16:09 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Typo corrected per your request NT
Message:

nt

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 22:31:23 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: This is the kind of post that keeps me coming back
Message:

BRILLIANT WORK Such, you outdid yourself which is hard to do.

This post is a keeper and should be read by everyone who has ever recieved knowledge both current and ex.

You said just about everything there is to say about the whole GMJ cult experience from start to finish.

BEST OF FORUM NOMINATION!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 02:50:18 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Oh Brian! ot
Message:

Brian, please email me.

Thanks, Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 21:48:18 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: You excelled yourself with that one . Thanks (nt)
Message:

g

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:26:30 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Excellent post!
Message:

Thanks. I will print it and give to some premies I know. You sumarized the guru extremely well.

luv

sb

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:17:53 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: I made a copy of your post, Such and I will email
Message:

to my premie friends because it is a good summary of of my concerns.

Dear Sloeburn,

I still meditate and, as Such says, once the guru is out of the way, the experience is even better, cleaner, more wholesome and MINE, MINE, MINE.

I will not presume to offer any advice about your situation. Like Such, I also lost a wife and child because of my involvement with the cult and to this day they do no yet trust me.

All I can say is that I wish you strength and hope that your wife will see that YOU love her and that the guru does not. As he said last year to the premies: ''I don't know your names and I don't WANT to know your names.''

Yes, sometimes he speaks the truth even if it is by accident.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 06:14:56 (GMT)
From: Tony
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Me too,an excellent summary. nt
Message:

nt

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 16:16:09 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Such -- brilliant post, especially the end
Message:

This put a whole lot together, phew. Also this disclosure about your life, which may have been made elsewhere, but I've only been here for about 5 months.

But, because of my devotion to miragey, my only beloved child was taken from me, and I was denied my rights as a Dad in court, for being a cult member -- right after the Jonestown massacre. Now, my adult son won't even give me his phone number or address -- he is still angry and bitter, too. So, the harm has thus been perpetuated and passed along to another innocent generation - premie children. Imagine the prolonged suffering I went through when my wife left the cult and walked out, and then I was not even permitted to have my boy visit me, when I lived in a premie house!

This is so sad, and heartbreaking. I don't know when you exited the cult, or started peeling back the onion -- many of us don't exit all at once -- but I hope you've been able to heal some of this.

Are there are parts of the court judgment that aren't too personal, and actually go the heart of the matter -- damning the cult? I would think they should be enshrined on ex-premie.org somewhere. Of course, if the court judgment was more based on your own personal level of commitment, no use dragging that back out. Been there, done that.

Namaste, f

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 21:58:11 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: dear Francesca... (ot
Message:

Dear Francesca,

I'm sure you mean well, but I don't think most of us would want our old personal scars and private living hells cut open again, rubbed with salt, and displayed for public consumption. Indeed, other factors were involved, like a rich conservative domineering family vs. a struggling artist, extended extracurricular activities that deeply hurt my feelings, tactical perjuries in my ex's depositions -- and a prolonged, vindictive proverbial hell hath no fury - which only served to harm and poison my beloved child. The private parties involved would surely regard any inappropriate public display as malicious and harmful intent - and call their attorneys.

On the contrary, if you (or anyone else) want to reopen Your own wounds and publicly display Your own personal living nightmares and hells, private laundry, divorces, etc., that would rightfully be Your decision.

Please don't presume further. Right now, I'm trying to Heal my family. Thank you.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 06, 2001 at 00:01:25 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: such
Subject: dear such... (ot
Message:

Dear such,

Sorry -- you explained more than you had to. That's what I meant by the last sentence of my post -- exactly what you said. No use dragging that personal stuff out for public consumption.

And like you said, if someone else wants to do it, fine. I certainly wouldn't presume that you or anyone else would want to!

love, f

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 06, 2001 at 09:25:28 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I feel such compassion for Marolyn and the kids...
Message:

Francesca, it's ok -- I AM, in truth, actually a deep and caring person, and I truly understand your honest motivation.

You know, this got me thinking:

What about all the heavy stuff posted here?!! I mean, Marolyn Johnson [aka Durgaji aka Rawat] was my friend - she was/is a wonderful person, at heart. To see all this terrible (but truthful) personal stuff [some involving her] displayed for the world to see -- hos got to be very devastating and personally humiliating.

Marolyn Lois Johnson: If you or the kids ever read this stuff, please know, Marolyn, that some of us still feel SO much compassion for you -- and your kids who were raised in the midst of all the smoke and mirrors.

Oh, dear God, if any of us has done wrong in the process, please forgive us all. More than anything, dearest Marolyn, I would have wished that the truth would liberate you and the kids, too -- and, yes, even poor Prempal himself -- who was clearly raised in such doctrinaire delusion, much sorrow, and dysfunctionality. After all, he lost his dad when he was very young, and thus traumatized, thought to continue the work -- but was himself then seduced by the temptations of maya [material illusion] and his own inherent weaknesses and mental confusion.

Enough for now. But, truthful abiding intuition speaks volumes, and there Is some wisdom, yes, in what I speak -- although, of course, I am just a silly, humble and lowly servant for the poor and meek,

Peace and lentils,

da lil' swami

PS that family court situation also archetypally personified the rote, institutionalized blind Discrimination against Dads and their kids -- which has harmed millions of families in our modern society - and contributed to much of our civilization's continuing problems and dysfunctionality. Let us therefore learn from the mistakes of the past -- and not be doomed to repeat them. Om da, Namaste!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 13:31:08 (GMT)
From: Nick
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: tough,but True;the Process may be hard but FREEing
Message:

Wow! What a brilliant posting.

It's posting like yours, Such, so full of perception and kindness, which were instrumental in helping me to finally and definitively leave the cult (after 29 years)a few weeks ago. Your analysis of the premie reaction to the info on M on EPO so closely mirrored my experience.

Just yesterday I was remembering how easy it was for me to see through all the other cults over the years when I was a fully paid up premie, and how blind I was to acknowledging any possible fault in M. No doubt because I had so much of my life, physical, mental, spiritual, financial, tied up in him that I would not allow myself to even begin to consider that I could have made such a fundamental and far reaching error in my judgement when committing my life to him over all those years.

I first saw the Mishler interview about 2.5 years ago, but simply did not allow the content to penetrate - my concerns only centred around the 'negative' consequences it might generate if other premies saw it, so much was I the archetypal 'company' man. Then, more recently, as doubts really began to hit me and I spent increasing amounts of time reading this site, I became more open to accepting what is now so very clear to me (i.e that I was heavily involved in a cult, and have allowed myself to be very much misled). But it took time, and it had to be the right time. Otherwise denial is the immediate reaction, for one's own protection and self preservation (or that's how it seems). The prospective loss of a value system, set of beliefs, sense of belonging to a community of people, the respect you have within an organisation, not to mention the guilt trip and fear of everlasting damnation (and I'm not joking) is scary.

And yet as soon as I made the clear and final step to get out (which was marked for me when I actually stated my name publicly here)I have felt a great sense of relief and new beginnings, and see so clearly how I let myself be deceived. I still do the 4 techniques (actually, to tell the truth, just 3 of them) and my experience of them really does substantiate to me what many people here have said, which is that it is not dependent on belief in M in any way - no better, no worse. One big difference is that I am now free of any sense of duty in that particular activity, and that is very liberating.

I know I have a lot of de-programming to do. However, I feel fortunate that I have come out without major pain or bitterness (at least yet). Having said that, the support and help that this site offers is fantastic - people talking honestly and openly of their experiences with M: something denied to me (or which maybe I denied myself) for most of my adult life.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:26:55 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nick
Subject: Thanks for your post, Nick
Message:

I'm sure it will mean a lot to all recent exes like me.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 11:51:37 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: suchji----------------ot
Message:

I got your E-mail and I forgot to answer it. Been totally busy up to my eyeballs. Sorry.

Jut thought to let you know.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 01:22:40 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: enjoy now
Message:

>but I also love her too much to watch her making a fool out of herself.

Maharaji has said some things of real value. Don't lose sight of that with what you read on this site.
Your wife will do just fine. Keep in love and don't try to 'fix' her.

>I am beginning to believe that she has built so much of her inner strength on this straw god that she might fall apart if he is exposed to her as a phony.

There is more to it than that.
Some people do feel something inside and base their strength on that even above M. Over the years M has actaully said to trust your inner feelings above any words. Not easy to do some times though. And certainly there are contradictions in what he has said. There is no absolute in words or ideas.
When you watch the evening news and also see your life as a little speck in infinite time, can you really say what true 'sanity' is. Or even what is really the most real thing in your life.
Anyways, enjoy your love and friendship and you both will do just fine!

CD

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, May 07, 2001 at 00:59:08 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: false vs non-absolute
Message:

'And certainly there are contradictions in what he has said. There is no absolute in words or ideas.'

There is a big difference between a statement being false and words/ideas not being absolute. He has made contradictory statements, and that shows that at least some of those statements are simply false. There is no leeway here. For example, he has said the following:

1. When asked what happens when we die: 'I don't know. At least I'm being honest'
2. When we die 'It all ends.'
3. When we die 'Something continues.'
3. 'Is there reincarnation? In my opinion, no.'
4. In the old days he would go on an on about reincarnation, he even talked about some 'hydrolics' involved.
5. He at least one time suggested that some premies were maybe followers of the 'Perfect Master' in a prior life.

The non-absoluteness of some words/ideas in no way accounts for these contradictions. At least several of these statements are false. Period. Are you suggesting that all these statements are true?

Why did you write 'ideas'? If you know something, it's not just an idea. Are you suggesting that he talks about ideas of his without really knowing what he's talking about? That he bullshits like so many other people? Hey, I can bullshit too, but I don't call myself 'The Master'.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:32:11 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Thanks for being candid, Chris
Message:

You said: ''And certainly there are contradictions in what he (Rev Rawat) has said.''

It is those contradictions that have cause so much of the pain and suffering to some very trusting, innocent and idealistic people.

And the contradictions continue in the form of the rewriting of our history to obfuscate any embarassing mistakes that he made in the past such as his claim that he was the greatest incarnation of God ever to live.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 03:58:56 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: re. M saying 'things of real value'
Message:

How about 'Get me the fuck out of here before the police arrive. Say the houseboy was driving'.

That was probably pretty valuable at the time. Or did you have something else in mind?

Perhaps '107 foot yacht'. That has value for sure.

'I'm just glad it isn't a new incident...'

No seriously, Chris. What's your favourite M line? - I mean, like the most amazingly profound, insightful thing you can remember him saying. Just one show-stopping example will do.

Like to share it with Sloeburn? Otherwise I fear he will not be so easily impressed. He's seen a bunch of premies 'trusting their inner feelings' and they just looked like they were enduring some dreadful sickness, remember.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 20:57:40 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: re. M saying 'things of real value'
Message:

>No seriously, Chris. What's your favourite M line? - I mean, like the most amazingly profound, insightful thing you can remember him saying. Just one show-stopping example will do.

'The peace you are searching for is inside of you.'
'Happiness is not a consequence'

Maharaji has certainly said things over the years that were very astute and true. Certainly any words I post here will only be torn to shreds no matter what their value.

When the plane rises abouve the clouds and the truth that the sunshine has always been there is experienced first hand, I feel what the peace hidden under the clouds of my ideas is.

I can share with Sloeburn that the fundamental message that Maharaji has presented is positive and valuable.
It has served me well.

Whatever anybody may think of M personally, the validity of what he has encouraged can be tested by anyone with their own first hand experience. You make your own choice.

Cheers,
CD

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 21:17:16 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: re. M saying 'things of real value'
Message:

'The peace you are searching for is inside of you.'
'Happiness is not a consequence'

Then why do you have to meditate for it and 'keep in touch' with the master so you don't lose it?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 06, 2001 at 01:53:16 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: No one finds what you claim is inside chris.....nt
Message:

asdfg

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 01:50:47 (GMT)
From: GERRY
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: so true, Chris
Message:

Chris, how was the love fest at the golden lotus feet this year? I'm assuming of course, you went to Amaroo. I mean, you'd almost have to, what with all that money you make (I can't remember how much that was but I do remember you telling us all, and how impressed I was at the time) and they know your real name and everything.

I have to agree with you, Maha has said some incredibly wise things. Useful too. My favorite is:

 

SUCK THE RAT. YOU LOVE COCA-COLA !!!

Now isn't that a great line? I wish I'd thought of that. What year did he say that? Was it in the Kissimme era where all those people got sick working illegally on Maha's 707, guilding the toilets and stuff and then ole guruji sell the mess to Maharishi? Well, something like that.

And yeah, it is nice to have a nice life. That's a pretty nice guru you have, you know, letting that kid take the blame for the man Maha killed with his car in India. Such grace to serve the perfect master of our time, born lord of the yogis, lord of the universe.

Embarrassing, isn't it?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 21:10:38 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: GERRY
Subject: so true
Message:

>Chris, how was the love fest at the golden lotus feet this year? I'm assuming of course, you went to Amaroo. I mean, you'd almost have to, what with all that money you make

Didn't make it. Funny that the money that should have allowed me to go prevented me from going because there was a conflict in timing.

I ended up spending the money on guitars and amps.

But, if I get a chance I am sure I will attend some more M events in the future.

CD

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 11:30:56 (GMT)
From: Diagnosis sought
Email: None
To: GERRY
Subject: Chris and sandy, what is the real flaw there?...nt
Message:

dfafsad

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 23:15:36 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: There are no Masters , incarnations of God ...
Message:

... although there certainly exist people who 'radiate' to others.

There are many more people who 'drain'.

I suggest that you leave your wife to deal with HER illusions , whilst you deal with YOURS .

Trying to convince someone that they are following a false master at the same time as believing that there's a true one out there somewhere , I would say is a recipe for disaster .

If & when she accepts that she has been following the Pied Piper for all her adult life she will be inevitably freaked out .

I'm speaking from my own experience , I felt like I'd had my legs kicked out from under me when I realised that Rawat was a phony .

Fortunately I had the support of my wife who said 'how come it's taken you so long to work that out'.

What I DEFINITELY wouldn't have appreciated at that time was being told , not to worry the real guy is still there for the finding .

Give one up , give 'em all up .

Pat Dorrity

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 13:04:58 (GMT)
From: SloeBurn
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: There are no Masters , incarnations of God ...
Message:

I think my definition of Master is a little different. I don't believe there is any one person, or even multiple people who are to be adored and worshipped as incarnations of the Creators. What I do believe is that there are people who have been touched by the Infinite and who also have a great capacity for nurturing and teaching. Just like a master carpenter could teach me how to build a beautiful cabinet, but that doesn't mean he is the only one who could teach me or that I couldn't buy some books and figure it out on my own over a long period of time. I do believe that when one person takes control over another, that clearly shows that they are no Master at all.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 16:20:33 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: Great gem there, SloeBurn
Message:

This is precious:

I do believe that when one person takes control over another, that clearly shows that they are no Master at all.

Thanks for that.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 23:09:45 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: Calling all ex-premies who practice 4 techniques
Message:

Dear SloeBurn:

There are no easy answers here. Your post was eloquent, and showed your love for your wife. Your support and understanding will be her most valuable asset. Because the meditation that Maharaji teaches is not unique, the meditation iself is not a fraud -- connecting HIM as the source of the experience is the con job. Or put another way, thinking that he is the human embodiment of the source of that experience. I prefer to do other meditations but there are several people who post on this site that still practice the techniques, and I hope they will chime in here. Hopefully with my subject line, they will.

There are some good links on the Rhasoami (sp?) roots of the meditation that M teaches, and the main ex-premie.org page has a link at the bottom of the page entitled, 'The True Spiritual Heritage of Prem Pal Rawat.' I think another poster also referred you to that link. I've only skimmed it myself, because I'm no longer interested in that practice, but it does show that these techniques are taught by many before him, and many other teachers currently.

Her experience in meditation are her own, and can never be taken away from her. In fact, she can gain more of her experience back if she realizes that it truly comes from within and without her, from her experience of life itself.

I think the reason people look so glazed over at the vids is that this guy truly makes no sense, and if you get your brain working around it, you'd think he was a moron. There was a commandment 'leave no room for doubt in your mind.' So the switched-off look you saw around the premies is the fact that, even if their brains work the rest of the time, they shut down anything in their mind that would be critical of M or analyze M in order to listen to him. Not realizing that he's a moron is a fierce form of meditation, wouldn't you say?

Anyway, I don't want to ramble.
This one is a good link on the spritual traditions from the ex-premie site:
spritual heritage, ex premie links

I really don't know what it would be like to have been around this long. I knew many rotten things about M even when I followed him, although not the total awful truth. I don't know what it would be like to be hit with it out of the blue. But maybe as someone else said, she's showed signs of knowing it's not all that it's cracked up to be. So make sure not to lay too much on her at once. And keep posting.

Best wishes, f

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 04:43:42 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Calling all ex-premies who practice 4 techniques
Message:

I still practice the Special K, breakfast of seekers and suckers alike. In a nutshell (and sometimes I do feel like One) the experience is as 'peaceful' today as it was when I was tied to the concept that it was by m's grace. Clearly, the information available on this site about m's behaviour, lifestyle, and responsiblity towards his most ardent followers as well as my own experiences regarding m's cavalier attitude has made it impossible for me to retain any sense of allegiance to him. Indeed, Such's description of the various stages of departure after being thusly informed is so true. For me, it was a matter of having my worst suspicions confirmed and then a helluva lot more. Gary

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 13:14:48 (GMT)
From: SloeBurn
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Calling all ex-premies who practice 4 techniques
Message:

My wife has kept the 4 techniques absolutely secret from me for 15 yrs. I think that secrecy is one reason I was getting so interested in finding out for myself. She told me that the reason I couldn't just go and learn the techniques is that M said if I wasn't 'properly prepared' that it could seriously damage me. I had been questioning why they told me it would be at least 8 months but as long as 2 yrs before I would be allowed to get K. Now that I know about the techniques (from various websites) she is truly worried about me. I think she thinks I am going to be struck down by lightening or something. It is sad. She does believe that without the guidance of M the techniques won't work. On the other hand, she is afraid I am going to try them and do myself some harm. This is a normally rational woman with an IQ of over 140. I think maybe I have done enough for now and will sit back and let her think. I sure could use this forum for my own support while we go through this though.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 21:06:08 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: 4 techniques
Message:

>Now that I know about the techniques (from various websites) she is truly worried about me. I think she thinks I am going to be struck down by lightening or something. It is sad.

Are you sure about the 'lightning' thing?

People oftne ridicule what they can't understand.
My experience of a knowledge session was valuable because the setting and preparation did allow me to have a full experience.

If you go out skiing for the first time and have no physical preparation or pre-launch advise to set the context, you just might not find skiing to be that enjoyable and not want to pursue it any further.
Thats the thing. You won't be struck by lighting on the ski slope but maybe by a snowboarder. No may not retain the interest that would allow you to progress to the point where you experience the true thrill of skiing down a fast slope.

Take care,
CD

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 12:08:54 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: rugu
Message:

On the contrary, my experience of the -modified- 4 techniques became much stronger AFTER breaking up with the guru.
More insight , more love , more experience and most of all: more sense of self worth.

Of course he said some good things during 30 years of speaking.

He turned more people away from God than he brought them towards Him, because many ex premies are very ambivalent after their decades long flirtation with this con.

Rugu: he who leads from light into darkness

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 21:02:49 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: u r
Message:

>He turned more people away from God than he brought them towards Him, because many ex premies are very ambivalent after their decades long flirtation with this con.

Not the way I understood the message.
To me the fundamentals were that I am living based on a great power within me that is common to all human beings.
The meditation is a method to experience the difference between ideas and what exists.
In many 'spiritual' writings I now see the common theme of the search for this ultimate truth about our lives.
And the value of the priority of awareness of our own true identity relative to the daily chores and our other ambitions and endeavors.
A very high self worth because what we are is great and not just a theory or what we want to believe. From an increase in our own self worth we can be in a position to share more.

The very people who now interact on this forum, whatever their current beliefs and theories, were originally brought together by the effort of Maharaji and the many people who assisted him.
Today the ex-premies continue to stick together. Most of them still have their high goals and idealism. Way more than your average person on the street.
I doubt any of the people participating on this web site would be doing any better never having encountered Maharaji.

CD

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 06, 2001 at 05:02:29 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: u r
Message:

May I recommend that you visit or re-visit the 'What's New?' section of this website and read the Michael Dettmers Speaks Out section. The main thing, you see, is not whether k is valid, it is about how m used and manipulated people who he recommended be devoted to him.

For me it wasn't just a matter of receving k and listening to m for continued inspiration. It was being told by m that the experience happens only by his grace. It was being told by m that this path was one of service, satsang and meditation and that by heeding his call (following his direction or agya) and for instance, living in the ashram, or doing 'full-time service' like those involved in the DECA project - this was paramount to 'realizing k', or being connected to the experience.

CD, if you take this enlightenment process seriously, and I believe you do, you listen carefully to m's advice as to how best to be 'in the experience'. Many of us who post here were quite sincere in following m's direction, because we were quite sincere about having the experience of k and serving m with the hope that we were helping to make this world a better place.

Every morning and evening in the ashram we would sing: You are my mother, You are my father . . . . You are may All my Lard to me while staring at a picture of m and somebody swinging an Arti tray. Whose idea was it that we do this? And while we were doing it (in the evening at least) m was half-way to passing out on booze and pot in the company of 'x-rated' acolytes. No one can dispute (except perhaps EV and m) that it was instilled in us that m was 'Lard'. Such as when M would make sly references in his talks like one I heard in Rome in the early '80s that went something like 'You know Jesus was around when the Roman empire was really powerful and influential - and people doubted him then, and Christians were persecuted and now here I am in Rome, don't you think that you have an opportunity to recognize (big smile)?' Or, the oft-quoted '...not a leaf moves without my knowing' or 'these are my creatures' - a interesting line spoken when referring angrily to a premie who was interfering verbally with premies approaching him in the darshan line one time in Miami. And of course what kind of message was m trying to convey when dressing up in the Krishna crown and costume?

So, what's my point? The point is, it is a well established fact to all who post here that m instilled in us the sense that he was Lard, Porky Master, whatever - and he encouraged our devotion - indeed, he stipulated that it was a necessary component to experience k. We entrusted our lives to him in service as per his advice. And what happend? Well, thousands of people made tremendous sacrifices of personal will, family, career, children, relationships, money, towards schemes that were meaningless. The ashrams which m said were going to be the 'backbone' of communities and central to his mission of spreading k were disbanded without so much as a thank you note and to add insult to injury - saddled everyone with debt - as if they weren't far enough behind the economic 8-ball after years of 'service'. The people who were involved in DECA worked their asses off for free at great personal sacrifice, in appalling conditions for over a year only to have m turn around and sell the plane at a huge loss, shortly thereafter. People have donated large sums of money that have gone towards supporting m's opulent lifestyle rather than 'propagation'. In other words, you took m seriously, you took his advice and direction and you got burned, burned big time. M has established a pattern of not taking personal responsibility for things that have taken place in his name, under his direction, by his grace. Actually, m has established a pattern of not taking responsibility at all - look at Jagdeo.

Now you come here CD and want to lecture us about what? k? Some of us still meditate using these techniques - if you've been following the FV then you know that these techniques do not 'belong' to m and are in fact shown by other teachers, fellow travellers, and have been printed in books. To make the statement that you think the majority of people who have taken the time to post here are better off having known m is ridiculously insulting when the very reason we are here posting is to help extricate ourselves from the years of abuse we have suffered by trusting m. Yes, A B U S E. ABUSE of our self-esteem. ABUSE of our trust. ABUSE of our young lives, So, I know you'll excuse me when I politely ask you to FUCK OFF!!!!!!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, May 07, 2001 at 20:40:01 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: u r
Message:

>Yes, A B U S E. ABUSE of our self-esteem. ABUSE of our trust. ABUSE of our young lives, So, I know you'll excuse me when I politely ask you to FUCK OFF!!!!!!!

Quit being so full of self pity and blame.
Do something positive with your life.
Yes, you have one.

There is no excuse for your insulting behaviour.
Hope for better things.

CD

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 08, 2001 at 12:14:47 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: u r-------------------------------gggggg
Message:

Keep on posting CD, Always good for a few laughs

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 08, 2001 at 01:44:15 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: u r
Message:

Quit being so full of self pity and blame.
Do something positive with your life.
Yes, you have one.

Indeed I do and no need to thank the big m for that. And no I don't live my life full of self-pity but I do come here to lay blame at someone's tootsies for all the things I expressed in my post to you that you chose not to respond to.

There is no excuse for your insulting behaviour.

Ditto, CD. You have insulted everyone who comes here to heal from the real abuse we have suffered from m's deceitful manipulation by saying that we are all better off for having known him. Go figure, I guess EPO must really be about saying thank you. Leave off my last missive to you and re-read my post.
Gary

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 06, 2001 at 17:40:51 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: Thanks for articulating that so well, Gary
Message:

Devotion to Rev Strangelove is still the key to the ''experience'' otherwise there would have been no darshan or arti at Amaroo. It is precisely this ''devotion'' that we are healing our broken hearts from. It was never necessary to Knowledge and is simply a primitive religion for peasants.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 06, 2001 at 11:56:21 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: u r- AMEN!!! nt
Message:

ugrrruuuuggggggg

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 23:50:28 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: u rug ur gu rugurugggg
Message:

Yeah, just like the 12 step meetings in jail.

Thanks to alcohol and drugs they can all share this unity.....

This is no disrespect to recovering --holics.

The bond we share on this forum is the fight to reclaim our lives.

And yes, just like those inmates, we do share a common history

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 22:47:12 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Encountering Mr. Rawat.
Message:

You say : I doubt any of the people participating on this website would be doing any better never having encountered M .

That's a good point for someone like me who never got close enough to the fire to get burned . I mean physically close , like washing his socks or gold plating his toilet , or working on his jetplane .

I somehow think , & please correct me if I'm wrong , that you didn't either .

Can't you put yourself in the shoes of those who did ?

Pat Dorrity

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 18:56:13 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: rugu - he who uses his followers for a RUG n/t
Message:

n/t

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:44:34 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: I hope you can find support here, Sloeburn
Message:

Francesca said to you: ''When I visited a former premie (who got me started posting on this forum) I was amazed that he was still wanting to bring people to EV so that they could learn to meditate. He has since left the cult big-time, and is a major contributor on this forum.''

She was talking about me. At that time (last October) I still believed that Rev Rawat had some sort of ''magic touch'' which would inspire premies to take the techniques of meditation more seriously than if I showed them or if they learned them from books or the internet.

Well, as Francesca said, the ''magic touch'' is to brainwash us into being devoted to him. The techniques are absolutely unimportant and are simply tools for cutting out outside distractions while pursuing inner peace. It is not WHAT you do in meditation that is important but WHY you do it.

Plenty of premies got nothing out of meditation and others got a lot. I also know people who experience inner peace who do not use any techniques. It is what you want that puts you in touch with peace not four simple yoga techniques.

I hope you realise that nothing bad will happen to you if you do them as your wife seems to think. It is that very fear and superstition which is the result of the brainwashing by Rev Rawat.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 16:37:01 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: By all means, use us for support!
Message:

I think that the whole reason for the 8 months to 2 years is to complete the ties to the cult, and M. If people could just get the techniques and meditate, the cult would not have brainwashed followers. 8 months to 2 years is a good long time to get the hooks in, wouldn't you say?

There is value to community and support and guidance from those who seem to know a bit more than us, at least at the time we seek to learn from them. From your posts above, I think we see eye-to-eye about teachers v masters.

Since I have been studying Buddhism since 1992 (I have recently gotten away from a cult-like involvement with Vayrayana), I have noticed that the teachers in many traditions put essential information and meditations in books. They encourage folks to study some with a teacher or group, but that doesn't keep them from sharing the nuts and bolts.

When I visited a former premie (who got me started posting on this forum) I was amazed that he was still wanting to bring people to EV so that they could learn to meditate. He has since left the cult big-time, and is a major contributor on this forum. There are so many Buddhist teachers, including Western Buddhists, that will teach you how to meditate the first time you show up, and never expect a thing out of you, or ask that you return. Babs wrote of a similar experience with a Tibetan Buddhist group in Boulder (otherwise she wouldn't have gone to the session). There is simply no reason to need to wait so long, other than to be indocrinated so fully, to have gone through so much, that one will be willing to stick with it for an inordinate amount of time.

After leaving M (along with the rest of his brother, Bhole Ji's, band), I actually went back in 1975 or '76 (memory does not always suit me well) because I was convinced that I had gotten the techniques from M, that he was the master, and until I'd practiced sincerely enough to see if they really worked, I couldn't abandon them. The brainwashing and the fear. I understand only too well.

Then I was in a premie band in LA called 'Beckon Gently,' and one of the musicians was having trouble meditating. She attributed it to the fact that she had never been revealed K through the proper channels, because her husband had actually taught her the 4 techniques. She had interviews and a special K session with John Hampton. Your wife has been told NOT to open that little box. And she's afraid to. My heart goes out to her, and you. I know many, many, intellgent people who somehow shut off their brains enough to coo at his babble and follow him. Since the 70s.

Best wishes, f

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 22:28:17 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: SloeBurn
Subject: Finding the way out
Message:

I was very touched by your description of your wife's situation and I wish I had some easy answers for you.
I, too, joined the cult in the early '70's. My husband doesn't really understand how I could still be in the process of getting over it, since he was never a premie. We've been together for twenty-two years now. We love each other deeply, work well together, and have raised a couple of delightful kids.

The main issues I am dealing with are regaining my creativity and self-esteem, and learning how to set appropriate boundaries. Having a good therapist is helping a lot.

There are a lot of things that have been useful to me over the years. I went through the est training in '79, at about the time I stopped going to nightly satsang. I still remember my amazement when all of the 'graduates' of the training emerged from the office building where we had been cooped up for three days, and there was a brilliant double rainbow in the sky. Up until that moment, I actually believed that rainbows were a gift from my Guru Maharaj Ji! I'm not recommending that your wife does est, of course, I'm just saying that there are many, many ways other than Maharaji's way to get where we want to go, and sampling from the spiritual smorgasbord is a real eye-opener for people who have been stuck in a One-Way cult. Mostly, though, I think she'll be okay because she has you. It was my longing for and belief in human love that got me out of the cult and into a real relationship.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 22:15:08 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: Ending This
Message:

I'm not sure how helpful I can be, but I do want to say that you put things very clearly. Only once or twice have I tried to (gently) question a long-time premie about whether Maharaji was really the medtiation master he presents himself as - and I got the same reaction you describe - a fearful, nervous neurotic state - like an unpredictable, maybe dangerous dog.

I am also a careful seeker, like you, and believe if you pay attention to the really very commonsensical signs of healthy spiritual growth which you mentioned, that one can avoid the many fraudulent teachers out there.

Your wife's problem is undoubtably that she got into the cult when she was young and not so careful (the pattern for many of us here), and, not having got out earlier, her entire pattern of spiritual growth has been identified with Guru Maharaji.

The trick would be to help her accept that letting go of M does not mean relinquishing her connection with the Divine. Although there are atheist ex-premies on this site, many of us have continued our spiritual practices with healthier practices and groups. Gurus are supposed to encourage their disciples to 'graduate,' but most of them don't. Leaving M is particularly difficult for some because he is more than just a teacher; he presents himself as a Savior. So you have a Super-Teacher AND a father/child sort of emotional relationship which can be a hard crutch to throw away.

I hope some comments here help you...I can see how just letting things be might seem attractive to you, but I'd bet, reading your post, that you will find ways to gently encourage her to outgrow Maharaji. (In reality, I'm sure she's already outgrown that Big Baby, but she hasn't let her fantasy guru go yet.) Good luck.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 22:00:15 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: Ending This
Message:

Sloeburn,

Be gentle with her. None of us here, even though we've been in the cult, can possibly know how she will respond to being challenged like this. Rather than confront her with Maharaji's behaviour, as you are a seeker, maybe learning about the Indian background, and discussing that with her, would be better. If she sees that Maharaji is just one of many teaching similar meditation methods, and that Maharaji's claim that he is part of a lineage is very debatable, maybe she will be more open to discussion.

It's sad for me to read posts like yours, because seeing genuine seekers after truth radiating is what drew me in to the cult in the first place. In those days most of us were fired with enthusiasm (from most of our jobs! - OK, I'll get my coat), but that initial inspiration had a momentum that kept us going long after the inspiration died. Hence the zombie look on the faces of those you saw at the programs. The only thing left is the attachment to Maharaji, and the need to see him to get fired up again, but it can only last while in his company, because there is no community any more.

I believe and hope she will see that her love for you is much more real than her love for Maharaji. Certainly, your love for her is greater that the non-existent love that Maharaji has for your wife.

John Brauns

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 01:22:15 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Sloe burn
Subject: Ending This
Message:

I agree with John. The whole trip has given your wife some sense of stability, a program so to speak, with which to focus herself. Frankly, I need that too. I have a program that I follow that has to do with pain management. It helps me pace myself and get things accomplished. Some of us do need some kind of program, whether it be a 12-step program, a church program, etc.

So be gentle with her. She doesn't have to give up all faith in God or give up meditating, etc.

I would say encourage her to think through this stuff critically, without giving up her quest for a gentle and loving heart. There's nothing wrong with the spiritual impulse, but I have definitely come to the conclusion that there is something very wrong with the idea of a master.

Noone can show you the way. They can tell you how they found the way, but each person has to find his or her own way. Masters are by definition exploitative. The idea that one must sit at a master's feet waiting for a crumb of wisdom to fall (Disculta's phrase)makes the devotee weak, passive, and eventually to give up his or her own ability to process experiences and decide what is right and wrong for him or her. Giving over one's power to another person can never result in anything positive. In the words of Joseph Campbell, we each have to become the authority of our own lives.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 21:54:50 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: Ending This
Message:

Sloeburn,

If your wife is a normal, healthy person, she will be able to make the adjustment from a cult member to an ex-cult member. However, most of us here made the change at our own pace for our own reasons and we did not have the negative information about Maharaji forced on us. So I can't say for sure what her reaction will be. She may of course resent you if you push her too hard.

I do think she deserves to know everything about Mr. Rawat that is established here. On the homepage of this website is a link called Introduction. At the bottom of that link, is another link called 'The 14 Objections.' All of the information gathered for those 14 objections is reliable and verified. It is based on first-hand accounts and direct evidence and is not just rumor. Your wife may be shocked by some of it.

You should know that there are many premies who do know all about Rawat's smoking, drinking, sexual affairs, the hit and run, etc. etc., yet they still follow Rawat as if he is their spiritual master.

Nobody here can predict what will happen with this issue between the two of you. But I can tell you that it is invariably a joy once a person starts to rebuild his or her own inner strength as they kick their straw god to the curb.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 00:25:02 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Shoeburn
Subject: Ending This
Message:

Give her a hug and tell her you love her!

I think the ex premie site could do a lot of good, but try to trust her ability to cope with it.

Being overprotective, could be like co- dependency.

When I was tearing myself loose from maha. I ent a number of times to some 12 step programs like the AA. Not for substance abuse but for reckognition of a pattern.

To me it was (is) helpful to vieuw the time in the cult as an addiction.

But before I got to that point, I spent about 7 years carefully comparing and studying different disciplines, traditions while also trying to understand things going on in society.

Eventually knowledge (not'Knowledge') and love got me to the point that I dared to cut myself loose.

The actual moment was when I revealed the techniques to my girlfriend, breaking the promise to 'the lord', there by fully acknowledging to myself that he was a fraud.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index