Joe -:- Maharaji from Atlantic City 12/76 Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 20:21:09 (EDT)

RichMandrake -:- I Second the Motion!!! Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:59:54 (EDT)

Passing Through -:- 1976? not far enough! Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 22:27:32 (EDT)

Jim -:- Tell that to Dave Wener's family Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 23:24:39 (EDT)

Pat:C) -:- Exes have no sense of humor Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 23:03:17 (EDT)

Disculta -:- Took it literally and flipped Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 00:57:17 (EDT)

Pat:C) -:- Thanks, Disculta Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 03:33:00 (EDT)

bdtd -:- Re: Thanks, Disculta Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:27:45 (EDT) bdtd Re: Thanks, Disculta Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:31:46 (EDT)

RichMandrake -:- The Michael Nouri Knowledge Hour Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 11:12:17 (EDT)

Posted: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 20:21:09 (EDT)
Original: NA
Posted by: Joe
Recipient: All
Email Address:

Subject: Maharaji from Atlantic City 12/76


I still have the tape of Guru Maharaj Ji speaking to the coordinators after a program in Atlantic City in December, 1976. I quoted parts of it a few months ago. That's when Maharaji says that the ashrams are a life-long committment, that anybody who moved out and got married made a terrible mistake (that it was equivalent to blowing your brains out with dynamite), and the like.

All of it is enlightening, especially in light of the lies Maharaji and Elan Vital are spreading now about what Maharaji actually did and said back then.

Anyhow, I have this tape, and I really think it should be transcribed and put onto the EPO site. Would anyone like to 'do participation' and take care of that? Volunteers? My email is above.


Posted: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:59:54 (EDT)
Original: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 20:21:09 (EDT)
Posted by: RichMandrake
Recipient: Joe
Email Address: Not Provided

Subject: I Second the Motion!!!


Yes...It would be VERY Interesting and Clarifying to read the transcript of that Meeting, Joe. Important Stuff!!...I am hoping that you can get it up on a Separate Page on EPO soon....

By the way thanks for your intelligent and (usually) reasoned posts here. I enjoy and benefit from reading them even when I disagree with you...All the Best...RichMandrake

Posted: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 22:27:32 (EDT)
Original: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 20:21:09 (EDT)
Posted by: Passing Through
Recipient: Joe
Email Address: Not Provided

Subject: 1976? not far enough!


Gee Joe,

Lighten up!

Or do you really think he meant it literally?

I think the root of all ex-premies problems with M and K is that you take everything literally and have no sense of humor.


Posted: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 23:24:39 (EDT)
Original: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 22:27:32 (EDT)
Posted by: Jim
Recipient: Passing Through
Email Address: Not Provided

Subject: Tell that to Dave Wener's family


I think the root of all ex-premies problems with M and K is that you take everything literally and have no sense of humor.

You deserve to be punished, PT. But guess what? You are being punished. I have to remember that when I see such insulting garbage. I have to remember that it's you guys, not us, who are paying so dearly. I spent some time with a guy like you yesterday and walked away feeling so sorry for him. I'm sure if we were together in real life rather than here, I'd feel the same for you.

Posted: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 23:03:17 (EDT)
Original: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 22:27:32 (EDT)
Posted by: Pat:C)
Recipient Passing Through
Email Address: Not Provided

Subject: Exes have no sense of humor


and take everything literally. Yep. Say what you mean and mean what you say. It's called speaking the truth. Infortunately we were all so naive and trusting that we believed Rawat's lies to the point that people gave him their inheritances and were impoverished when they were kicked out of the ashrams and other's killed themsleves when they found out that the superior power in person was unable to help them. Gee, but it has all been lies and jokes all along. How silly of us.

Posted: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 00:57:17 (EDT)
Original: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 23:03:17 (EDT)
Posted by: Disculta
Recipient: Pat:C)
Email Address: Not Provided

Subject: Took it literally and flipped


It wasn't funny to me, especially since it was being quoted to me by my bridesmaid as I was getting married to the guy I had been encouraged to move out of the ashram with a few months earlier, when they were trying to avoid the responsibility of all us IHQ premies.

I was in for a penny, in for a pound. I took everything M said completely to heart. It seemed absurd to me to go so far as to be a devotee of a strange, overweight, materialistic guru unless I was absolutely certain that he was my spiritual master, and that therefore I should listen to him implicitly. So his turns and changes of direction were a major mind-and-body-fuck for me. I think that the day I heard that satsang (BTW, the bridesmaid is apparently still married to someone who is rumored to be CW!) was the beginning of a big down-turn in my life - and in the lives of many premies I knew. Although on the one side, things got more exciting and 'high,' with tons of programs and a return of the 'magic,' it was being driven by extremely heavy and abuse satsang by M at most of the programs, and especially at the new 'secret' programs for the higher-ranking ashram premies or instructors or rich premies.

It's not okay that M did this! It was clearly self-serving, as I now understand. He was not concerned about our human wellbeing, and because I believed his certainty that he was the Lord, I overrode myself and my body and became ill.

Many, many people I knew became ill or a bit crazy during this time, especially when M reversed the rules again and closed the ashram and fired the instructors, leaving thousands of people who had dedicated their lives––sometimes leaving spouses and children–– devastated and in various stages of shock. It's my belief that a good proportion of these people are still suffering from PTSD from these shocking experiences of institutional guru abuse, and haven't found a way to validate what they went through and therefore 'get over it.' I think that most people who went through this just moved on, which is a really good idea - I did. But I think that most of them moved on without really integrating their experiences, which leaves a kind of stagnation in part of the self which can lead to depression and an inability to make one's life work. We often meet people on these forums who have just discovered the information and the forums after years and years of being out, doing fine and forgetting about the whole thing. Yet when they actually look at what happened and let themselves feel what they actually felt about it, which was probably suppressed by shock or lack of permission at the time, they frequently report that they feel like they have recovered something.

This is the reason some of us continue to post here, despite having lives and not really caring a hoot about M. I know it seems that we posters are obsessed about him. The people who are sure we are obsessed about M are those who actually are obsessed with him as a way of life, and they can't imagine how it actually is from this side. Having seen through him, he doesn't mean much to us one way or the other, but we are not happy with his behaviors and their effects on parts of ourselves, and on so many other people.

Love kd-feeling rather serious

Posted: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 03:33:00 (EDT)
Original: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 00:57:17 (EDT)
Posted by: Pat:C)
Recipient: Disculta
Email Address: Not Provided

Subject: Thanks, Disculta


I'll keep on posting too until Rev Rawat straightens out his act and comes clean. The reason why I am here in the first place is because an aspirant committed suicide in my community last year. He killed himself because he had been watching five months of Rawat videos all saying that he could not come home without the master and needed to be saved from the evil mind and the big bad world by the master.

One does not turn to a master for help if one does not need it. He asked for help and it was not forthcoming. He needed help now not later. He began to feel that he was being led down the garden path. He was told to have patience. He chose to kill himself at the age of 22 instead.

I don't know any completely sane premies. The insanity leads them to think that it's fine for the guru to play games, tell lies and spin revisionist bullshit.

Like Jim, I also feel very sorry for them because it is impossible for me to ever make them believe that, by leaving the master, they will be freeing themselves from enslavement to a cynical, unethical and greedy man. They really have to see that for themselves and they can only see it if they first find sanity and morals inside themsleves.

As long as they rationalize the master's obvious lack of ethics they are themselves unethical or struggling with the insanity of having to deal with conflicts in themsleves.

Posted: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:31:46 (EDT)
Original: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 03:33:00 (EDT)
Posted by: bdtd
Recipient: Pat:C)
Email Address: Not Provided

Subject: Re: Thanks, Disculta


Jim, I think you have put it in a nutshell....the lack of ethics doesn't matter if they still seem him as THE master. He has carte blanche if he is the man incarnate. The last video I watched was the kit training advertising video. He said grace is courtesy, so now it is all 'courtesy' of the master. If we had just said, back in the old days, according to him, that we loved him to death instead of calling him the lord of the universe, there wouldn't be this confusion today.

Ooops, my fault!

He is the master so he makes and changes the rules. Knowledge and all that comes with it is 'courtesy' of him and it's like borrowing a car. If he wants his car back, then he gets his car back.........So all those people sat there hearing this stuff and it seems justifying to them, that he is the Master magician, waiving his wand of grace, uhhh, COURTESY, and however the game of knowledge gets played, is up to him, and it just doesn't matter. Infact, if we have any brains at all, we would understand he can change the 'rules' whenever and however he chooses.

Remember, that's why we need a living master, to make knowledge alive in the time we are in....... How many times has he said that? Golly, gee.

It is the stupidist video I had ever seen.

Still, yesterday, I was feeling very suseptible to it all. It was that all pervasive pull that I was leaving basically my whole existence behind. It was scary! The vulnerability one is left with in trying to live without premiedom is no easy task.

I realized I honestly had been existing for twenty-eight years with the daily feeling that all I was, was due to knowledge and M. And it didn't make me feel very confident to go out and face my day. Infact, it was crippling and paralyzing. This was the essential thing that had me tied to knowledge and m. Without that, I had no humaness, no identity worth anything, NO FEELING. The trick is, realizing that is me. I can be all that because I always was. What a revelation. But I tellya, it's a powerful tie. And I just don't think premies can give up that tie, that umbilical cord easily. A lot of factors have to be in place for that one piece of information to click and then the whole picture snaps into focus.

The best art exhibit I was lucky enough to attend was the impressionist painters. Up close, they are just brush strokes. Step back a few feet, it becomes a picture. Step waaaaaaaaaay back, and it becomes a crystal clear moment in time. I'm still stepping back, just trying not to trip over my own feet. It's been a long time since I trusted my own two feet.

Posted: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 11:12:17 (EDT)
Original: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:27:45 (EDT)
Posted by: RichMandrake
Recipient: bdtd
Email Address: Not Provided

Subject: The Michael Nouri Knowledge Hour


BTDT, You talked about watching the latest Knowledge Propagation Video with Personal Host and MC Michael Nouri....Ironically it was THAT Video, which I saw maybe 2 months ago...that was the Straw that Broke the Camels Back...I had been limping along carrying that heavy bag of rationalizations and irreconcilable beliefs on my Premie Shoulder...Still waiting for MahaRawat to FINALLY make sense of it all..Still Waiting to be able to FINALLY Surrender to the Living Perfect Master (I know its sick but DEEP Conditionings die hard).Always blaming myself for that chronic..Uneasy feeling...That Something just Wasnt Right..

I then walked in 5 minutes late to the Michael Nouri/MahaRawat Variety Show. MahaRawat was in the middle of explaining that it wasnt HIS fault that people had seen him as the Lord of all Creation...I immediately felt my Blood begin to Boil...This Had ALWAYS Been a sticking point to me...Why doesnt Maharaji JUST TELL THE TRUTH??!!..I had managed to suppress that desire/conflict/confusion to a great degree..But for some reason..THIS hear Maha/Rawat spout that Bullshit...was INTOLERABLE to Me!!...I found myself cursing myself for being late because I wanted to hear Maha/Rawat's FULL explanation/Deceit and the Church Lady who had called me to tell me about the video made sure to tell me that it was a special 'ONE Time Event'....The Video was segmented..and at the End of the segment Msr. Nouri came on...and very glibly explained what MahaRawat just had said and then briefly a page of bulleted writing came on the screen to spell it out for those of us..who may need to READ the Party memorize it...

I found this all Disgusting!!!..Words fail me in Describing the Very Practiced..Polished yet Oily Doublespeak that Nouri was spouting with a Straight Face (what does this guy GET from it anyway?..Blondes, Cognac and Cuban Cigars?? )and the CLEAR Intend of it was for Maha/Rawat to Brainwash/Condition us Again...To Believe/Spout that Maharaji came to the West with a 'Simple Experience to Share' and it was the MAHATMAS who took that and started pranaming to Him and calling him the Lord...The Savior..All Powerful etc..MAHARAJI THATS AN OUTRIGHT LIE!!!

As The Video went on Nouri explained that we were seeing 'another side' of Maharaji. What I Was Seeing was a Very Smug..Condescending Flippant fat guy..Who was TELLING those poor souls lined up against the Walls in Atlanta How it Is...I Could Actually FEEL the Intimidation in the Air...As he Condescendingly talked about how everything is by the 'Courtesy' of the 'Master'..and explained how it used to be called the 'Grace' of the Master...(Obviously training us as to the New Premie Doublespeak of The Day)..

Something in me was just was all so disrespectful of those in the room. Yet I saw my own chronic attitude of forced reverence and fear afflicting those sitting in the room. This feeling has alway been running like a underground river beneath the Bliss and Adoration of my personal Premiedom and apparently theirs also.

It was then that Maharaji somehow transformed right before my the Liar..I now know him to be. The Video cut to a response Maha/Rawat was giving to a woman who apparently had the audacity to bring up the subject that he once claimed to be the 'Lord of the Universe' (the actual question was edited out..Im sure to spare us the full intensity of his deceit). His reply was given in a patronizing manner with MahaRawat with a straight face and almost completely covering over his distain, responded that (and i forgot the exact wording) WE had gone overboard and we should have just told everybody that Maharaji was a guy 'we loved to Death'..EXCUSE ME MAHARAJI?...Wasnt it YOU that had us sing to you every night 'Our Lords the SUPERIOR POWER IN PERSON??..Wasnt it You ..who on every inside flap of YOUR Proganda Rag 'And it is Divine' signed your name to a statement that there is 'Never a time when THE LORD OF ALL CREATION doesnt Manifest in a Human Body'.....

Well I didnt know it at the time but my former 'Lord and Savior' had just delivered the 'Coup de Gras' in severing my devotion to the Sick Belief System I had been merged with for the last 28 years. I sat through the rest of the heart pounding and my head racing. I then quickly exited the event went home and quickly distracted myself by either turning my TV or Computer on and focusing on other things until the feeling of Betrayal had passed.

Days passed. I didnt sit down to meditate (unusual for me). I could feel myself palpably upset with MahaRawat for his Deceits..yet not having anything to deprogram me from the overriding belief that he WAS the Lord and I wasnt...therefore even though he lied to me and disrespected me by his lies...somehow HE was right and I was Wrong. Even So..I was Angry at him for putting me in the position of having to try to devote myself to someone who would lie to me like that...Weeks passed...I didnt think much about this..but neither did I meditate ..or watch any of the Maha/Rawat Videos on my night...almost unconciously...I was on my Computer..and typed in the Word Maharaji in a Search Engine. Rawat had conveniently made numerous website that spouted his propaganda and got them up front on the Search engines.(Im now SURE that this is a conscious Strategy on his/Ev's Part to keep people like me from FINDING what I found.)

What I Found is EX-PREMIE.ORG...God Bless You, Forever!!!...For the Next Days even weeks..I found myself Devouring the Pages and Posts of Mischler, Dettmers, Donners et Al...And as I Digested the Material, I FINALLY had the pieces of the Puzzle that had been missing, LO these MANY YEARS...I had the information to Deprogram myself ..from a belief ..that absent this website..I might have carried with me to My THANK YOU AGAIN....those of you who have put up and supported this information....I am Grateful to You...your Courage and your truthfully portraying and exposing the one who apparently so sadly is lacking in those qualities...

So BDTD, just thought you might be interested in hearing how that video effected another fellow formerly deluded traveler..Thanks for Listening...RichMandrake