Bob Lesch (posted by JHB) -:- Ashram/Techniques -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 14:22:52 (EDT)

__ Gregg -:- Re:Techniques -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 22:40:38 (EDT)

__ Cynthia -:- Re: Ashram/Techniques -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 18:10:02 (EDT)

__ __ Deborah -:- Re: Ashram/Techniques -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 17:12:59 (EDT)

__ __ RichMandrake -:- Great Post Cynthia!!**BEST OF** -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 05:36:00 (EDT)

__ __ ggg -:- Re: Ashram/Techniques -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 22:37:47 (EDT)

__ __ gerry -:- *****BEST OF***** -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 20:19:22 (EDT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks, Gerry... [nt] -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 22:44:10 (EDT)

__ Joe -:- Re: Ashram/Techniques -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 17:31:40 (EDT)

__ Mirror at the End of the Road -:- Re: Ashram/Techniques -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 16:29:58 (EDT)

__ __ Francesca :C) -:- Ashram debt -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 16:41:38 (EDT)

__ __ __ btdt -:- Re: Ashram debt -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:31:51 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Unconscious -:- Sorry, I misunderstood ... -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:09:01 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ 'factonal'= -:- fiction+fact -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:33:17 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Your subconsious ... -:- Re: 'factonal' [sic] -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 00:13:42 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ btdt -:- Re: 'factonal' [sic] -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 01:30:11 (EDT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Fran...I was nearly tranferred to SF in 1980... -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 17:21:02 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- We coulda been roomies! -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 18:38:10 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: We coulda been roomies! -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 22:18:30 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Heir David Schmitz -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 01:19:46 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ btdt -:- Re: Heir David Schmitz -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 01:44:42 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Heir David Schmitz -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:12:31 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- He comes short of foaming at the mouth -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:37:13 (EDT)

Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 14:22:52 (EDT)
From: Bob Lesch (posted by JHB)
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Ashram/Techniques
Message:

[Bob sent this to the EPO Webmaster mailbox. He has given me permission to post it, and has promised to respond if anyone has any issues with his point of view - JHB]

having been asked to become a member of the ashram in 1977 and staying until they were closed in the states in 1983, i think i have a valid 'point of view'.

there was no 'ill-preparedness' when we all left at the end. in fact, everyone i still have contact with, lives and has lived, far above the poverty line from the first day of their 're-integration' back into the mainstream.

where else did young men and women get a chance to live w/o the stress of worldly expectations while pursuing spiritual goals? nowhere i know of.

who among us was physically abused? no one i know of.

who among us left w/ financial debts or physical ailments? no one i know of.

granted, it was not a place for the weak, or weak of heart. but if you go back and try to jog your memory of that time in your life, i do not think
you'll find you were forced to do anything against your will. in fact, i was always encouraged to follow my heart and was never asked to compromise my own integrity.

as far as the techniques that maharaji teaches are concerned - there are many people who 'missed the boat'. and i'd like to explain why i believe that.

i come from a different perspective than most people. i received the techniques 28 years ago and have practiced them on an average of 5-6 times
/week for .5 - 2.0 hrs each session over that period of time. in that same time frame i have been a student and practitioner of alternative medicine including many asian disciplines including shiatsu and acupuncture. there is
no healing technique that i have encountered as effective or efficient as maharaji's techiques. aside from the aspect of 'spiritual enlightenment', the healing aspects on a purely physical level are incomparable to any healing
techniques currenty known in the medical community, both in terms of ease of use and overall effectiveness. there is nothing false or misleading about the practice of the techniques. in fact, it is my beleif that maharaji has always
understated the power and value of practicing the techniques.

now i'll admit that i have not always agreed w/ every i was told to do in 'service to maharaji'. i encountered a lots of egotistical fools who tried to convince me to do things that went 'against my grain'. i did get reprimanded for not following the party line. so what! i got transfered all over the country for being headstrong as a 'punishment'. i looked at it as a great way
to see the country and learn a new skill. was that a hardship?

so i have to say - thanx!
because i know that some of the people responsible for this site had a hand in sending me around the country and contributed in some way to the wealth of knowledge and experiences i have accumulated.

all in all - i'd have to say that these 28 years have been nothing short of wonderful.

wishing you all the best in life,
bob lesch

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 22:40:38 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Bob Lesch - posted by JHB
Subject: Re:Techniques
Message:

Bob: I have heard dozens of tales of abused ashram residents and DECA workers. How can you discount them?

I, like you, joined the ashram in 1977 (well, Jan. 1978.) I do not regret the experience, or the previous 3 years experience w/ M. I left a year later.

However, I can't believe that you think M's techniques are that fantastic. I have to assume you believe this due to your faith in M. I have experimented with many meditations more efficacious and especially more well-explained than M's. Sure, the 4 techniques work, but they are nothing special, compared to the wealth of spiritual wisdom that has come to the Western world in the last few decades.

I have to assume that the Lotus Feet reign supreme in your spiritual experience. Right?

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 18:10:02 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Bob Lesch - posted by JHB
Subject: Re: Ashram/Techniques
Message:

I'd like to respond to a few of your comments:

Who among us left w/financial debts or physical ailments?

I did not have any financial debts because I moved out of the ashram before they were closed, however I know several people who were left with a heavy burden of debt as a result of the shutdown.

Who among us was physically abused?

First, there are the children who were sexually abused by Jagdeo. That heinous type of physical abuse caused long-term emotional harm to the victims. Second, Maharaji himself abused his powerful status as Lord, when he solicited sex from female premies and threw them away like so much trash to him. That's also physical abuse, as well as intense emotional abuse. No refuting it. It's a fact.

Those countless ashram premies who were working at the Deca (Broadripple, other hotels) ashrams, were without question taxed physically and emotionall beyond imagination. I was there for a year working directly under Jim Hession and Guy Rollins in the Design Dept. Hession was the 707 project director and Rollins, who was in charge of the Design Dept., was my boss. Maharaji came to our office everyday, several times a day and made impossible, often ridiculous demands upon us. I started to physically and emotionally break down. As the 707 project was coming to an end, premies were so burnt out it's now impossible to calculate how much damage Maharaji did to these premies. Exposure to many toxic chemicals, along with 24 to 72 hour stretches of working on coffee and cold fatty food served in styofoam was not exactly good for us. I developed chronic migraine headaches from lack of good food and sleep. I don't know of many people who had the time to meditate because we were so tired, but I and many others tried.

I do not think you'll find you were forced to do anything against your will

I was, as were many at the Deca project. The fact that it was a hidden, secret company with no OSHA liability coverage, no legal standing as a bona fide employer speaks to that. Everyone there had to lie about Maharaji's identity. His name was never spoken. He was always called ''the Client.'' Whenever an outside vendor had to come, say to repair a photocopier (which we needed IMMEDIATELY for M's requests) I'd have to make an excuse to get them out of the building. At the hangar, everyone had to lie to the FAA inspectors about the identity of the 707 owner (which was really a company, but we all know was actually M). For a week I had to fill in for someone at the hangar. Every rivet, bolt, EVERYTHING that was done to that aircraft had to be documented and signed off by the FAA. The volume of paperwork was immense. I hated it there. As I stated above, at the large complex, many, many people were exposed without proper protection to many toxic, lethal chemicals--all for the benefit of M. He never seemed to worry about it. I know people who have had longterm affects because of that exposure.

In addition, because the project was always stretched to it's limits financially, and M or whoever in charge didn't want to buy the Boeing specficiations, we broke the law. A premie who worked at Boeing smuggled volumes of photocopied documents, and I mean boxes and boxes, which were flown to Miami for Maharaji. I'm sure that he knew this was going on because he requested them, and he later placed that premie in the initiator program, i.e., after all the illegal smuggling was done and she came to Miami. I received those documents personally, and it was my job to prepare them for Maharaji's use. All these things are definitely and without question, being asked to compromise my integrity and safety as a so-called free citizen. I did it because I though M was the Lord, immune from criminal activity, which, of course, I believe covered me, too.

As far as the techniques that maharaji teaches are concerned - there are many people who 'missed the boat'.

Before I received knowledge in Jan. 1976, I became an aspirant in August of '75. It wasn't long before I ''knew'' I wanted knowledge. I was sucked in big time. For months, in preparation for meditation, minimum 1 hour in the am and also an hour in the evening, I sat on the floor, crosslegged, either listening to tapes or reading Maharaji's satsang from one of the magazines.

After I received knowledge I was a faithful meditator. Every day, twice per day, and trying to remember the 'word' during the day. Once I was in the ashram, I did even more meditation. I went to satsang every day. I got up to sing arti and I wasn't the first one to rush out of the meditation room. After I was finished at Deca because I got so sick, I meditated for many, many hours every day, until, of course, I was forced to go to work after a couple of months. You see, I had more earning power than most other ashram premies.

I've heard that expression ''missing the boat'' a lot lately from premies. With all respect, I know many premies who were faithful to their knowledge and ashram vows, despite what the spin is now. While I was in the cult, I made a decision to surrender everything to M. As a result, I still to this day, experience the physical affects of my experience being a premie in Maharaji's ashram.

I hope this explains things...
Sincerely,
Cynthia J. Gracie

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 17:12:59 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Ashram/Techniques
Message:

Hi Cynthia, I can't believe this guy comes over and tries to revise the situation with the claim that we were all adults shit. We were all cultists who happened to be the same age as adults.

Yes, lots of secrecy around the hangar. Their was a time when one of the Boeing airplanes collapsed from the support and went through the body of the plane. A whole team of Boeing technicians were working along side the premies. Some of them actually found out WHO the client was and figured out the cult. I mean, in retrospect, it was weird.

A tonne of premies would come in for volunteer and do anything they were told. The Boeing employees would ask people what their job was and the service crew would blissfully reply that they didn't work, they were volunteering. Didn't add up to non-cult workers.

And when the Client did show up, you'd think the President of United States was arriving. All the security and stuff. Everyone running around like crazy and no one able to concentrate on tasks at hand.

I'm sure the BigHead loved the attention from non-premies as well.

I was asked to photocopy a manual at the Hangar and told it is was illegal and keep it low key. Kind of difficult though, the manual took me at least 40 hours to photocopy. But at the time, it seemed like play, how could it not, we were silly little guru groupies.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 05:36:00 (EDT)
From: RichMandrake
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Great Post Cynthia!!**BEST OF**
Message:

Thank you,Cynthia, for Communicating so Passionately and Eloquently your Experience in those 'Lord of the Universe' years....All the Best...RichMandrake

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 22:37:47 (EDT)
From: ggg
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Ashram/Techniques
Message:

Hi there

Just a little note on your viewpoint.
Abused on an emotional level is effectively bad for a child too.

My daughter aged 6, watched and screamed and cried while the premies in the premie house we lived in dragged me off to satsang every night. And I had to hear her crying her eyes out and be told that she would be all right. I trusted that she was I thought we were all nice people. Looking back, it took her twenty years for her to tell me how she felt about it, not until I left the cult could she even begin to tell me, she has suffered from her mother putting the cult first in her life. She has not forgiven me for many things that happened to her in that house. Forced to eat things she didn't like, being with people that she didn't like, not having her mother to herself. In her young mind she was treated badly. We are still trying to put the damage right today.

Don't tell me everything was fine and dandy for everyone, please.
ggg

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 20:19:22 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: *****BEST OF*****
Message:

I'd like to respond to a few of your comments:

Who among us left w/financial debts or physical ailments?

I did not have any financial debts because I moved out of the ashram before they were closed, however I know several people who were left with a heavy burden of debt as a result of the shutdown.

Who among us was physically abused?

First, there are the children who were sexually abused by Jagdeo. That heinous type of physical abuse caused long-term emotional harm to the victims. Second, Maharaji himself abused his powerful status as Lord, when he solicited sex from female premies and threw them away like so much trash to him. That's also physical abuse, as well as intense emotional abuse. No refuting it. It's a fact.

Those countless ashram premies who were working at the Deca (Broadripple, other hotels) ashrams, were without question taxed physically and emotionall beyond imagination. I was there for a year working directly under Jim Hession and Guy Rollins in the Design Dept. Hession was the 707 project director and Rollins, who was in charge of the Design Dept., was my boss. Maharaji came to our office everyday, several times a day and made impossible, often ridiculous demands upon us. I started to physically and emotionally break down. As the 707 project was coming to an end, premies were so burnt out it's now impossible to calculate how much damage Maharaji did to these premies. Exposure to many toxic chemicals, along with 24 to 72 hour stretches of working on coffee and cold fatty food served in styofoam was not exactly good for us. I developed chronic migraine headaches from lack of good food and sleep. I don't know of many people who had the time to meditate because we were so tired, but I and many others tried.

I do not think you'll find you were forced to do anything against your will

I was, as were many at the Deca project. The fact that it was a hidden, secret company with no OSHA liability coverage, no legal standing as a bona fide employer speaks to that. Everyone there had to lie about Maharaji's identity. His name was never spoken. He was always called ''the Client.'' Whenever an outside vendor had to come, say to repair a photocopier (which we needed IMMEDIATELY for M's requests) I'd have to make an excuse to get them out of the building. At the hangar, everyone had to lie to the FAA inspectors about the identity of the 707 owner (which was really a company, but we all know was actually M). For a week I had to fill in for someone at the hangar. Every rivet, bolt, EVERYTHING that was done to that aircraft had to be documented and signed off by the FAA. The volume of paperwork was immense. I hated it there. As I stated above, at the large complex, many, many people were exposed without proper protection to many toxic, lethal chemicals--all for the benefit of M. He never seemed to worry about it. I know people who have had longterm affects because of that exposure.

In addition, because the project was always stretched to it's limits financially, and M or whoever in charge didn't want to buy the Boeing specficiations, we broke the law. A premie who worked at Boeing smuggled volumes of photocopied documents, and I mean boxes and boxes, which were flown to Miami for Maharaji. I'm sure that he knew this was going on because he requested them, and he later placed that premie in the initiator program, i.e., after all the illegal smuggling was done and she came to Miami. I received those documents personally, and it was my job to prepare them for Maharaji's use. All these things are definitely and without question, being asked to compromise my integrity and safety as a so-called free citizen. I did it because I though M was the Lord, immune from criminal activity, which, of course, I believe covered me, too.

As far as the techniques that maharaji teaches are concerned - there are many people who 'missed the boat'.

Before I received knowledge in Jan. 1976, I became an aspirant in August of '75. It wasn't long before I ''knew'' I wanted knowledge. I was sucked in big time. For months, in preparation for meditation, minimum 1 hour in the am and also an hour in the evening, I sat on the floor, crosslegged, either listening to tapes or reading Maharaji's satsang from one of the magazines.

After I received knowledge I was a faithful meditator. Every day, twice per day, and trying to remember the 'word' during the day. Once I was in the ashram, I did even more meditation. I went to satsang every day. I got up to sing arti and I wasn't the first one to rush out of the meditation room. After I was finished at Deca because I got so sick, I meditated for many, many hours every day, until, of course, I was forced to go to work after a couple of months. You see, I had more earning power than most other ashram premies.

I've heard that expression ''missing the boat'' a lot lately from premies. With all respect, I know many premies who were faithful to their knowledge and ashram vows, despite what the spin is now. While I was in the cult, I made a decision to surrender everything to M. As a result, I still to this day, experience the physical affects of my experience being a premie in Maharaji's ashram.

I hope this explains things...
Sincerely,
Cynthia J. Gracie


---

Great post Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 22:44:10 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Thanks, Gerry... [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 17:31:40 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Bob Lesch - posted by JHB
Subject: Re: Ashram/Techniques
Message:

Thanks Bob, for the thoughtful post. And thanks also for agreeing to discuss this with people who take the time to address what you are saying.

First, regarding the ashrams, I lived in Maharaji's ashrams from 1974 until 1983. I left a few months before all the ashrams were closed, later in 1983. So, I lived there a long time. So, my point of view is 'valid' as well.

I do not pretend to say that ever minute in the ashram was a drag. It wasn't. But much of that time I hated the ashram, mostly the poverty and the celibacy, the lack of privacy, but I think you have to agree, that during that period Maharaji was clearly viewed as a Supreme Being, who knew what was best for us, and leaving the ashram would have been a demonstration of extreme lack of faith in him. Moreoever, Maharaji held ashram meetings in which he denigrated those who might think about leaving the ashram, and the initiators did the same thing, parroting what he had said. So while, you had "free will" to leave, that's very misleading.

To be in the ashram for 10 years, my 20s basically, I obviously wasn't doing anything else, like getting an education, a career, and relationship and a family, and all the things people do in their 20s. So, for Maharaji and Elan Vital to now claim that they were never intended to be a life-long committment, that they were just temporary, 'experiments' or that they were to protect us from drugs or something is quite offensive, and, in fact, lies. Since my dedication in the ashram was to Maharaji, it is appalling that he would lie about it now.

You said:

there was no 'ill-preparedness' when we all left at the end. in fact, everyone i still have contact with, lives and has lived, far above the poverty line from the first day of their 're-integration' back into the mainstream.

While being above the poverty line is laudable, I know for me, in my 30s I had to basically start over on a career, because most of us in the ashram worked menial jobs, and were often transferred or given jobs in the cult so that we couldn't keep jobs for very long. So, I don't think I was below the poverty line, but I don't think it helped my living standard to have lived in the ashram. And of course, Maharaji gave us no asistence, serverence or anything like it when we left to get started on our own, despite the fact that he has millions and lives like a king.

I also know people who, after the ashrams closed, didn't fare too well, either financially or psychologically, and Maharaji did absolutely nothing to help with the transition, and even stuck the ashram premies with the ashram debts. It was pretty disgusting and there are quite a number of people who are pretty angry about it. Mostly, it's Maharaji's uncarring attitude towards us as people that makes people the most angry.

who among us was physically abused? no one i know of.

While there are some examples of physical and sexual abuse, and also examples of premies who were permanently injured ffrom their "service," I agree that this wasn't wide-spread, but I think psychological abuse was rampant, both by mahatmas and initiators, and the most extreme, David Smith, who engaged in wholesale psychological abuse of the ashram premies in a couple of the ashrams I lived in. He was a very sadistic person, and having access to people who were vulnerable in the ashrams, he preyed on them. Anyone who was in the San Francisco ashram in 1981, for example, will testify to this.

The ashram was a situation that put people in vulnerable situations to anyone with an abusive personality or illness. Since they were trying to completely surrender their lives to Maharaji, the ashram premies were vulnerable to him and to the 'powers that be' like David Smith, who were operating on his behalf, and with his instructions. But since Maharaji never even knew who we were, let alone grave a rats ass about us, there was no actual protection.

Some ashram premies were injured working at DECA, for example, in 'service' and that's another example.

who among us left w/ financial debts or physical ailments? no one i know of

I know one ashram premie, now an ex-premie, who, when the Montreal ashram closed, they had to divide up the debt, and she was stuck with $20,000 in ashram debt and took years to pay it off. G, who posts here sometimes, said when the Washington DC ashram closed, he got stuck with about $5,000 in debt, just him personally. I guess I was lucky that I left before anyone knew the ashrams were closing, and although I just left with my clothes, I at least had a job and no debt, although I soon was in debt, just to get an apartment, etc.

So I think you might be lucky you didn't get stuck with a debt, but I think people have a good reason to be upset with the fact that Maharaji first lambasted people for thinking of moving out of the ashrams, talked about them as life-long commitments so that people trashed their lives for 10 years to live there, and then just dumped the ashram premies with no explanation when he felt like it. Oh, yeah, and then he blamed US for the ashrams not 'working.' It's pretty reprehensible.

Regarding the techniques, I'm glad you find them positive and helpful, and I think that's great. I don't deny that some people find them something they want to continue to do. I think the problem is when people think Maharaji has something to do with the experience they are having, or the fact that meditation might have health benefits and the like. Nothing wrong with meditation, it's the belief system, that Maharaji is connected to it in some way that is the problem.

Gee, Bob, I recall your name, but I don't know if I ever lived in the same community with you. I hope I didn't do anything awful to you when I was an Elan Vital bureaucrat.

Joe Whalen

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 16:29:58 (EDT)
From: Mirror at the End of the Road
Email: None
To: Bob Lesch - posted by JHB
Subject: Re: Ashram/Techniques
Message:

Dear Bob:

Thank you for your thoughts on early life with Maharaji. Although I don't fully agree with your assessments, I won't indulge myself in a full rebuttal.

There are two points which I will address. You say:

1. who among us was physically abused? no one i know of.

There have been several posters on the forum who were sexually molested by Mahatma Jagdeo. I assume that that falls into 'physically' abused. Also, many premies performed excessive service to their physical/mental detriment, being pushed and pushing themselves into ill health to prove their devotion. That counts for both emotional and physical abuse in my book.

2. who among us left w/ financial debts or physical ailments? no one i know of.

I was a treasurer of a community and when it was disbanded, I, personally was left with a large debt. There were quite a few pleas for financial assistance at community meetings, with minimal donations, and I was left with the lion's (and I mean LION) share of the debt to repay personally.

I also knew an ashram premie who was asked to leave the ashram when it became known that he had a long-term and incurable illness. Pleas on his behalf to help him make the transtion were denied.

So, although you personally may not have known people who were entangled in the examples you mentioned, it does not mean that they did not occur.

One of the recurring phenomena that I've noticed with people in cults, and premies in particular, is the notion that if something was not directly experienced, then it doesn't exist. That type of solipsistic thinking belongs to people in their 20s, but sadly seems to represent the current mindset of many premies. More exists out there in the world than just *I*.

Thanks.

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 16:41:38 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Mirror at the End of the Road
Subject: Ashram debt
Message:

When I was transferred to the ashram in the San Francisco California Bay Area in 1980, there was a brother in the community (who shall go unnamed, I don't wish to mention people's names who don't participate here). He had come to the Bay Area to live in that community (outside of the ashram) after an ashram in Sacramento, California had closed.

Before moving in the ashram he had some personal debt, but had the money to pay all the debts off before he moved in the ashram, which was supposed to be required. (However, as ashram coordinator and house coordinator and treasurer over the years, I can tell you that many an overzealous devotional-thinking instructor saddled the ashrams with people's personal debts from time to time.)

The Sacramento ashram did not have sufficient funds to go to a program. They told this brother to move into the ashram WITH his debts, give the ashram the money so that some of the ashram residents could go to the program, and then his debts would be absorbed by the ashram. The ashram closed, and he was stuck with his debts.

Francesca

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:31:51 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Re: Ashram debt
Message:

This isn't entirely the whole story and it is far from factional. Believe me, I know. This guy caused a lot of turmoil and defimation of character.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:09:01 (EDT)
From: Unconscious
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Sorry, I misunderstood ...
Message:

I thought someone was criticizing your post and I was tired. It's terrible what some people will do in the name of 'holiness'.

All the best to you!

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:33:17 (EDT)
From: 'factonal'=
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: fiction+fact
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 00:13:42 (EDT)
From: Your subconsious ...
Email: None
To: 'factonal'=
Subject: Re: 'factonal' [sic]
Message:

with the 'tone' of being 'factual'

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 01:30:11 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Your subconsious ...
Subject: Re: 'factonal' [sic]
Message:

Actually it was a typo but boy did it bring up a lot of stuff I thought I'd forgotten about. This guy did a lot of damage to a lot of people all in the name of climbing the premie ladder to the sky.

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 17:21:02 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Fran...I was nearly tranferred to SF in 1980...
Message:

I'm going to reply to the above post, but I wanted to tell you that when they (DLM-Miami) were considering where to transfer me, the two options were Gainesville and San Francisco!

I, unfortunately, was sent to Gainesville.

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 18:38:10 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: We coulda been roomies!
Message:

Well, we're making up for lost time!

Love, Francesca

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 22:18:30 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Re: We coulda been roomies!
Message:

I know, roomies! But wasn't David Smith there in the 80's? That really would have sent me off the deep end.

I still, for the life of me, cannot remember David Smith's face. I know I've seen him, but it's a real block. Good, I guess, eh?

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 01:19:46 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Heir David Schmitz
Message:

Smith was in charge of the 'Western Region' of the US from about 1981 on. Before that, he had been in England, and freaked so many people out there that they finally sent him back. I remember he showed up in Miami, and was supposed to rest because he acted like he had had a nervous breakdown in the UK. But he started being weird right away, messing with people, and I told him to cut it out. He didn't like that.

Then, I had the misfortune of meeting up with him again in San Francsico where I got sent toward the end of 1980. Smith absolutely terrorized the ashram premies, and actually was pretty weird to the community premies too. He was about the most uptight person I ever met. He just ozzed paranoia and repression. A very weird person. But, apparently Maharaji liked him and put in in charge of all of us.

But all the social climbers in the ashram, mostly women who shall not be named, some of whom are now still in Elan Vital, including on the Board of Directors and being bureaucratic flaks, kissed Smith's ass so much it was nauseating.

I fought with Smith tooth and nail and he finally backed down, but he is one screwed up, robotic, cult-crazed, totally programmed, jihad-ite for Maharaji. I haven't talked to him in years, but, according to Jim who has, he acts like he has had a lobotomy, totally flat personality.

San Francisco was a great premie community because it was so non-conformist. I think it was the Haight influence and all. It was the opposite of Washington DC which was very organized and together. The premies in San Francisco where just too independent, for much organization. I guess that's why there was never much propagation in San Francisco, and still isn't. There is nothing happening here, except for the few church ladies that Pat talks about. Smith comes here sometimes still, I am told, and I've always wanted to show up and ask if he remembers me, and then report him to the war crimes tribunal.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 01:44:42 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Heir David Schmitz
Message:

Well, he was still acting pretty much the way you described at the last Santa Monica program. Some of us watched him go balistic over the lady who had the coffee cart outside the hall doors. She had received knowledge eons ago and dropped out of the whole scene. Fast forward twenty years and Maharagi literally ends up where she works. Of course everyone was talking to her, thinking this was the best lila in the world and how special she must be to have the Lord come to her, she was laughing and said 'Who knew my past would come back to bite me in the arse (sp).' She wanted to go in, have a look around at his pix, etc to see what he was like now, and then attend the program. As it was a pwk writstband event only, Smith saw her and went ballistic, literally throwing her out. She was stunned and had a few things to say about the security people. Someone tried to explain who she was to Smith and all he could bark was 'Stay out of it.' Well, they didn't and Charanand said that yes she could go in, she could get the magic wristband. Smith eyed all this and eventually tried to cough out an apology but it was too late. She related to the premies but he ruined it. So maybe, for her, it was her lucky day to be accosted by Smith cuz she folded up her cart and left, never going in the hall. The premies who watched this whole scenario were appalled.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:12:31 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Re: Heir David Schmitz
Message:

Well.

I guess Gainesville was the better choice, although I still to this day have never been to the west coast. I was a renegade premie at Gainesville and was made Asst. Community Coordinator, which, in essence, meant that I did all the work, and the Community Coord. a guy named Randy something, got all the credit, etc.

Smith sounds like a complete and total asshole, not to mention rage-a-holic. He must think he's almost a god-in-a-bod.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:37:13 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: He comes short of foaming at the mouth
Message:

Not a pretty sight. Once you don't take him seriously -- meek as a lamb. He has no power if you don't buy into his place in the cult. It is funny that by the time I was ready to tell all the instructors who laid into premies (including me) off, right before I moved out of the ashram, the situation never presented itself. Things like that happen for a reason. I would have verbally taken their heads off, because I didn't think they were anyone important. In fact, they were living off our charity and should have been a bit more thankful.

I remember one night when the instructors were in our kitchen, talking loud and running a blender. Someone asked them to stop so that people could sleep, and Smith told them off.

He had one ashram meeting at Galewood Circle in San Francisco where he was yelling at us and trying to turn us into spineless 'I am not worthy types.' Telling us we all didn't deserve to live in URUG's ashram. Telling us we were pathetic. Making fun of the fact that we sat on the floor and meditated and dragged our pathetic little meditation blankets through the house. He said they were full of hairs and stuff from the floor like horse blankets. And then he started neighing at us!

It was great. I wish I had it on tape. By then I thought he was full of baloney and wasn't amused. It was worthy of the Kissimmee rants of the Drunken Master. 'Suck the rat, it's full of Coca Cola.' Mmm hmm. Tasty, lord, tasty.

Francesca

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